One Year Out - JB 410 CC

[Ace]

Wade, thanks for your review. I purchased a Schiller 410 a few years ago. I think this is essentially the same JB tuba that bears other badges. It was a terrific tuba with no flaws I could detect, other than a balky, slightly misaligned fifth-valve slide which responded to a little cleaning and proper lubrication. The horn was heavy. All the metal on the instrument including the bell, was thick. I thought, "Finally, a tuba that might hold up to middle school kids". If my memory is correct, I think Marty may have purchased a Schiller 410 at about that same time also, and may have reviewed it on this board. (I'm too lazy to look it up.) All in all, JB hit a home run with this nice five-rotor 4/4 CC tuba. There are those that recommend buying a used name-brand tuba for $4,000 rather than pay $2,000 for a new 410. Do what you want folks, but my belief (based on my ownership of three 186's in the past) is that the $4,000 used horn is not twice as good as the JB 410. I have other things to buy with that $2,000 savings-----such as the excellent JB French horn I bought from Tom at MACK Brass; and a super Schiller "Studio" tenor Bb/F trombone from Laabs. Heck, I still have a chunk of cash remaining.

Ace

[MackBrass]

Thanks for the detailed review and some of the issues addressed and are being addressed as we speak with the manufacturer. For all my tubas, not just the 410, we are looking at a new design to improve the linkages and paddle assemblies. Although they are adequate for the most part, there is plenty of room for improvement. Reviews like these are warmly welcomed as this is how improvements are made once action is taken. The biggest area I have stressed for improvement has been on all tuning slide alignments and this has improved especially over the last year. One thing I will say about JB in general is they are very open to improvement and will makenchanges as needed. Over the years many dealers settled for just OK but as time goes on these will only make very good horns even better.

Thanks again

Tom

[MartyNeilan]

Wade, thanks for your review. I purchased a Schiller 410 a few years ago. I think this is essentially the same JB tuba that bears other badges. It was a terrific tuba with no flaws I could detect, other than a balky, slightly misaligned fifth-valve slide which responded to a little cleaning and proper lubrication. The horn was heavy. All the metal on the instrument including the bell, was thick. I thought, "Finally, a tuba that might hold up to middle school kids". If my memory is correct, I think Marty may have purchased a Schiller 410 at about that same time also, and may have reviewed it on this board. (I'm too lazy to look it up.) All in all, JB hit a home run with this nice five-rotor 4/4 CC tuba. There are those that recommend buying a used name-brand tuba for $4,000 rather than pay $2,000 for a new 410. Do what you want folks, but my belief (based on my ownership of three 186's in the past) is that the $4,000 used horn is not twice as good as the JB 410. I have other things to buy with that $2,000 savings-----such as the excellent JB French horn I bought from Tom at MACK Brass; and a super Schiller "Studio" tenor Bb/F trombone from Laabs. Heck, I still have a chunk of cash remaining.

Ace

Thanks for the shoutout, Ace. I did purchase one of the early 410's with a Schiller label. It was an overall very decent horn. However, I thought the sound to be slightly "covered" and did not project as well as some other horns. Conversely, it was very difficult to break up, compared to a genuine 'fone. Mine did also seem very heavy for the size, and the bell seemed to be a very think, soft metal. I think they have made numerous improvements since then. If I were to buy another, I would probably get the goldbrass bell that is now available, as Wade did. I sold mine to get a vintage Conn that was more resonant and lively. The Conn needed more work on intonation than the 410 which was very good in that area with only a few notes needing much attention. The student who purchased it moved a few months later; it fell out of the back of a pickup and was repeatedly run over on the Interstate.

Wade, GLADE TO HAVE YOU BACK! and thanks for the excellent writeup!

[bisontuba]

Hard to go wrong with the 410 CC's......

[toobagrowl]

Interesting thread -- honestly seems a little nit-picky at first, but at least it's detailed.
As these horns get better, the prices will creep up, as they should. Many of these Chinese horns are still a bargain

I bought a dirt-cheap Chinese large-bore F trigger trombone a couple months ago. It was marked as "used", but it was really new -- there was just some buffing powder(?) on the bottom of the slide. It came with a decent case. I find the trombone to play well with good intonation on the open partials and a nice sound. The slide is good and the lacquer is beautiful. No leaks. No problems with the threaded parts. Good trigger (rotor) compression. The only complaints I have is the trigger linkage is under-engineered and flimsy, and the trigger's slide alignment isn't that great. But the main slide is nice and smooth and everything else seems good so far. Time will tell how it "holds up", I suppose.

[Donn]

I thought, "Finally, a tuba that might hold up to middle school kids".

That's funny, it's exactly not what I was thinking while reading the review. This is a "professional" horn - for someone who knows how to pick it up without creasing anything, how to keep the nuts tightened on the paddle spindle, how to avoid accidentally bending the paddles, etc.

[Travis99079]

A quick aside on those rubber bumpers... I received my own 410 about 3 months ago, and so far I love the heck out of this thing. This is the first tuba I've invested in and I'd like to take care of it well so it lasts me as long as it can. Does anyone happen to know the diameter of the bumpers? I won't be home for a few days to measure them, and I'd like to place an order online for a strip so I can cut and replace them myself. A certain website has 2 choices: 3/16" and 1/4". Unfortunately mine seems to have come with some pretty flimsy ones and I've more or less ripped them in half from basic use. (This has never happened to me, and I've been on old school-owned 186's for the last 10 years.)

[Kevin_Iaquinto]

A quick aside on those rubber bumpers... I received my own 410 about 3 months ago, and so far I love the heck out of this thing. This is the first tuba I've invested in and I'd like to take care of it well so it lasts me as long as it can. Does anyone happen to know the diameter of the bumpers? I won't be home for a few days to measure them, and I'd like to place an order online for a strip so I can cut and replace them myself. A certain website has 2 choices: 3/16" and 1/4". Unfortunately mine seems to have come with some pretty flimsy ones and I've more or less ripped them in half from basic use. (This has never happened to me, and I've been on old school-owned 186's for the last 10 years.)

I talked to Tom about the bumpers, they are the 3/16" ones. My horn absolutely destroyed the original bumpers on the 1st and 2nd valves. I now have a set of neoprene bumpers.

[Travis99079]

A quick aside on those rubber bumpers... I received my own 410 about 3 months ago, and so far I love the heck out of this thing. This is the first tuba I've invested in and I'd like to take care of it well so it lasts me as long as it can. Does anyone happen to know the diameter of the bumpers? I won't be home for a few days to measure them, and I'd like to place an order online for a strip so I can cut and replace them myself. A certain website has 2 choices: 3/16" and 1/4". Unfortunately mine seems to have come with some pretty flimsy ones and I've more or less ripped them in half from basic use. (This has never happened to me, and I've been on old school-owned 186's for the last 10 years.)

I talked to Tom about the bumpers, they are the 3/16" ones. My horn absolutely destroyed the original bumpers on the 1st and 2nd valves. I now have a set of neoprene bumpers.

Alright, thanks!

[balchb]

Yes, the original bumpers all needed replacing on my Wessex, too.

[MackBrass]

All bumpers on rotary horns will need to be replaced at some point and each type have their pros and cons. The type that come on these horns are a silicon based and these can last anywhere from a few months to a few years depending how much you play.

Pros and cons:

Silcone based bumpers.
Pros, they tend to be very quiet.
Cons, some types of these can have a lot of bounce in them when depressing the paddel and and on the release.

Cork
Pros, this is the best for little bounce and also very quiet.
Cons, they dont last long and can easily break apart.

Black neoprene
Pros, last the longest, and very little bounce.
Cons, can get very noisy and these tend to harden over time.

On my tubas i use two different types. On the down stroke i use cork and on the up stroke i use black neoprene. The cork will last longer on the up-stroke and using both types i have found you can maximize the life of each type.

On the MRP i picked up a few months ago, they used a type of silicone based bumber and these were awful. This type of bumper cord had the most bounce of any cord i ever used. Once replacing it the horn had a noticeable change in the way it played.

For most of the bumper cord used on JinBao tubas, the size is 3/16th. When you need to replace them and if you decide to use cork, order 1/4 in sticks. With the cork, you want to go a little bigger so you can trim them. Dont get the 1/4 inch neoprene as you will never get them installed as that is too big. 3/16th is an exact fit and should require little to no trimming for the neoprene or silicone based cord.

Lastly, when installing them especially for cork, be sure to leave it trimmed on the heavy side as they will compress quickly. When i say a little heavy i am only talking very little. Check the alignment on the back of the valves by looking at the hash marks on the back plate.

Thanks

Tom

[Wyvern]

Wade, Thank you for your review. It is good to have feedback so weaknesses are identified and can be corrected. We are working hard to raise the quality standards which although they have come a long way in the 5-years Wessex has been in business, and particularly in the last 2 years we have been regularly visiting Jinbao, I know can still be improved further.

Jinbao this year are having a real drive to improve quality. As Wessex did our quality checking at factory last October and again in January, a lady was noting every issue raised to report back to the General Manager, Mr.Lui with a project already underway to raise standards in every area. I raise the benchmark of acceptability every time and in turn see improvements with every visit and am confident that in the not too distant future Chinese brass will approach western made brass in quality. Yes this may raise prices a little, but it is mainly a matter of staff training and improving procedures with greater attention to details and consistency. And the thing is Jinbao are keen to improve - with me actually being told by the General Manager to not accept anything with which I am not satisfied.

For some of the specific points raised in the review;

The polishing procedures have in the last few months been much improved. I could hardly believe the excellent finish when I checked in January. All the swirls under the lacquer have now disappeared with a really deep sheen.

Tubas bells are made from 0.75mm brass which I believe is much the same as Western factories. What was the problem was mechanical shaping without enough working of the brass meant it was not hardened enough. Wessex have now inserted an additional process into the production to harden the bells which we have also found improves both response and projection.

We have also replaced the nickel plated brass paddle rods with solid nickel for extra strength.

For slides fit and alignment, we pull out every one during our quality check and will not accept any from the factory which are not up to standard. This and other defects which are not accepted, do sometimes mean horns miss a particular shipment, but I would rather they arrive late, than customers being dissatisfied when they are supplied. Also much better to stop issues ever leaving the factory than to try and correct deficiency latter in UK or USA.

I will be returning to China in second half of April, so if you have other feedback for improvement, do message me. Whenever any customer has an issue, we do our best to ensure it is addressed, discussing with the Production Manager (who is a very good engineer and has a passion for his work) to try and find solution to avoid further occurrences.