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Good question. Perhaps Klaus will know.

We would have to check the serial numbers to be sure which one was first, but the earliest 4-piston/5th rotor tubas I know of are the two J.W. York 6/4 CC tubas and one J.W. York 5/4 CC tuba of similar vintage. I know of no others manufacturing something like this before the 1980's, when Peter Hirsbrunner, Sr. made copies of the older CSO York, and then the HB2-5P. My understanding is that he was very concerned about how this (the 4/4 Hirsbrunner) instrument would turn out, saying that he was afraid that people would be expecting a smaller version of the CSO York, which it was not, although it was/is a very good tuba. Up to that time, many of us were still playing 4-valve CC tubas, and if you had a 5-valve tuba, it was almost certainly all rotors.

If someone knows of any other 4-piston/5th rotor tubas made before 1981, we'd all like to hear about it!

Wow... the 4P/1R is really that recent of an invention??

I'm not sure what year it's from, but Dan Schultz has this old DEG ad posted on his Website. My old Marzan was from 1971, so I'm guessing these this ad was from the early 70s as well. A little earlier, but not much:

Do we know if Donetelli ordered the horns like that, or did he just purchase what someone at York designed???

bloke wrote:I'm GUESSING that the 5th valve on that one-off/special-ordered York tuba had the INTENDED purpose of throwing it back down in Bb...and (as if often the case with "gadgets") other purposes were found for it...

bloke wrote:I know no lore.
I'm a guesser.

Perhaps, but a pretty logical and practical guess, nonetheless.

GUESSER??

or

B-ESSER??

I agree with Bloke on this one. It was a very common thing for cornets to have rotary "switch valves" to put them in "A" back then. While most were not designed to be played "on the fly" I believe that the 5th rotary valves on the Yorks were inspired by this idea. York also used this "transposing valve" concept on the rather preposterous double tuba (Bb and F) that they built. I'm sure that's still in Vince Simonetti's collection.

YORK-aholic wrote:I seem to remember this quote (sort of) from the "Wind and Song" book where Jacobs auditioned for something on an Eb tuba with the fourth valve taped down... Then again, my memory has always been a bit suspect...

The Curtis, which is where Donatelli was his teacher and whom the Philly Orchestra commissioned #1 for.

For clarity, what year were the CSO Yorks built?

I believe that the Chicago Yorks were built in 1933. I also remember seeing a King CC, (factory, not cut ) with 5 piston valves. My memory is a little hazy but the 5th valve was operated with the left hand somehow. I don't recall if the 5th valve was a whole step or not (and something tells me that the 4th valve might have equalled 2-3). That horn would have dated from the 20s or 30s and had a detachable bell. I believe that Warren Deck had some connection with this tuba. Anyone else remember this instrument ?

While not a 4 piston-1 rotor setup I think you could still call this horn a 4+1 (still equals 5 ).

Paul Scott wrote: I also remember seeing a King CC, (factory, not cut ) with 5 piston valves. My memory is a little hazy but the 5th valve was operated with the left hand somehow. I don't recall if the 5th valve was a whole step or not (and something tells me that the 4th valve might have equalled 2-3). That horn would have dated from the 20s or 30s and had a detachable bell. I believe that Warren Deck had some connection with this tuba. Anyone else remember this instrument ?.

I saw this horn at Warren's back in the 80s.

UncleBeer wrote:

Paul Scott wrote: I also remember seeing a King CC, (factory, not cut ) with 5 piston valves. My memory is a little hazy but the 5th valve was operated with the left hand somehow. I don't recall if the 5th valve was a whole step or not (and something tells me that the 4th valve might have equalled 2-3). That horn would have dated from the 20s or 30s and had a detachable bell. I believe that Warren Deck had some connection with this tuba. Anyone else remember this instrument ?.

I saw this horn at Warren's back in the 80s.

I'd be very interested in seeing that set up....

Unclebeer is correct on all counts. The 4th valve on the discussed King (one of Fred Geib's instruments) is a 2-3, like all the rest of Geib's tubas, apparently due to that being the common configuration on the Sanders, as Geib played early on; and the 5th valve is a 4th.

Bill Rose's first CC tuba was a similar Sander with a 2-3 4th valve. He had played that for 15 years or so, and as a result, when he then moved to Mirafones and a Holton, he always had the 4th slide cut to a M3rd. He said he had played on that setup for so long, that a conventional 4th configuration would just mess him up. Unlike Geib, Bill never owned a 5 valve horn (or an F for that matter).

Mikelynch wrote:The 4th valve on the discussed King (one of Fred Geib's instruments) is a 2-3, like all the rest of Geib's tubas, apparently due to that being the common configuration on the Sanders

Not just Sanders either. My 4th valve on my 6-valve Couesnon French tuba was also 2+3 (till I took a hacksaw to it!)

That's unusual for a French tuba. Most that I know of have the 3rd V as a major third. Keeps the riff raff away from wanting to borrow your horn.

Mikelynch wrote:That's unusual for a French tuba. Most that I know of have the 3rd V as a major third.

You're absolutely right Mike: I started drinking too early today (is that even possible?). The 3rd valve was a major third.

Mikelynch wrote:...have the 3rd V as a major third. Keeps the riff raff away from wanting to borrow your horn.