Small CC in quintet

[eupho]

Who out there (like me) plays a small cc in quintet? What make/model are you playing?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I often play a YCB-621 in quintet.

[tylerferris1213]

My go-to horn for quintets is my Getzen G-50 CC.

[PaulMaybery]

With a smaller tuba it is much easier to excite the harmonics of the instrument, thus giving it a little more "brilliance" or "sizzle." IMHO, that more excited sound supports the upper instruments and gives the chords a certain flare, especially if the group actually listens harmonically and "locks their harmonics." I don't believe an instrument that produces a sound with so much more fundamental, and little upper harmonics in its recipe, functions in the same manner. This is very hard to describe.

The size of the tuba also needs to connect to the depth of sound of the other brass players. Players such as the older Chicago Symphony Quintet sounded fine with Jacobs on the 6/4. New York Phil Quintet with Bell on a King 4/4 and Torchy Jones with Abe on a King 4/4 also worked. Historically with the NY Brass Quintet, which is probably the 1st quintet to appear regularly from circa 1950, Harvey used a very small Conn CC. When Toby replaced him, he used a 184. Canadians with Chuck used small equipment. In the P Jones Brass Ensemble, John Fletcher used a Besson Eb. (But that was not really considered that small of an instrument being that it was the standard orchestral tuba in the UK.) I believe Sam was using a 4/4 CC with the Empire, likely the M-W Wm. Bell Model. They eventually wound up with the Eb.

These groups all had very different sounds and styles of playing. Some seemed very light and bright and others who were also affiliate with orchestras, much heavier sounding. What intrigues me is the dynamic range that the group, and the tubaist, is able to produce. Unfortunately I've heard too many relatively good groups that stay in that "mezzo forte to forte" range, and never really whisper or shout. A good and well suited instrument can help in this area tremendously.

Going back to my opening statement and making a further comment: As far as 'Brilliance" and "Sizzle" it is indeed very possible to make that happen on a 6/4, it will simply be proportionally larger than say a 3/4. If the trumpets, horn and trombone all have huge sounds, then perhaps you've got a match.

Interesting side bar: For a time, I thought Fletcher used his 6/4 Holton CC on the PJBE recording of the Malcom Arnold. You may recall the cover photo of the group standing in front of the British Museum and the Holton is sitting promenently on its bell. Back in '79 I lived in the UK and would meet with John regularly. Regarding that photo, John mentioned that he got a call to show up early in the morning for the photo shoot and to bring the largest (BAT) tuba he had, simply for the visual effect. Until, then I wondered how he made it sound so focused and expressive. Then I learned that he played the PJBE concerts and recordings on the Eb.

[eupho]

Great response, Paul. Lot's of great history in there.

[barry grrr-ero]

Furthermore, if you didn't know who was who when looking at that cover, you'd probably guess that big and tall John Wilbraham was the tuba player since he's standing next to the Holton.

[Bill Troiano]

With a smaller tuba it is much easier to excite the harmonics of the instrument, thus giving it a little more "brilliance" or "sizzle." IMHO, that more excited sound supports the upper instruments and gives the chords a certain flare, especially if the group actually listens harmonically and "locks their harmonics." I don't believe an instrument that produces a sound with so much more fundamental, and little upper harmonics in its recipe, functions in the same manner. This is very hard to describe.

What Paul said so clearly that he said his hard to describe. Make a lot of sense to me. I've used big CC's, medium CC's, small CC's, Eb's and F's in quintets over the years. I never liked the sound of bigger CC's in quintet, but I used it because it's all I had at the time. I didn't like the F when playing jazz or popular music where I was playing a bass line. I like the smaller compact sound and I own a 621 CC. I've been using that in a rehearsal quintet and I used it for an Easter quintet service a couple of weeks ago.

[PaulMaybery]

Furthermore, if you didn't know who was who when looking at that cover, you'd probably guess that big and tall John Wilbraham was the tuba player since he's standing next to the Holton.

Barry, that was exactly the same idea I had that Wilbraham was Fletcher. That was way back and musicians did not have playing cards such as they did for baseball players. I first met Fletcher in the early 70s when the LSO was in Ames, Iowa. Before the concert I went back stage behind the curtain and ask to meet John. Out comes this thin little guy with the Amish looking beard and the wild curly hair, Was I surprised. He was also surprised that anyone would ask to see him and we became very close friends after that. I think I learned more about tuba playing from just hanging around with him, than I ever did in formal studies. But that has nothing to do with small CC tubas. I have a habit of hyjacking threads. Sorry.

[Michael Bush]

I don't yet, but I just ordered a small CC to use in a quintet a group of us who play in a community band are going to do next month.

[bisontuba]

I played in a professional quintet for about 15 years - Mirafone 184 was all I used.

Just curious...does anyone use a Mirafone 184-5U CC for anything these days?

[eupho]

Mike: What did you order?

[Bob Kolada]

I played a 56J in a few quintets (and too much concert band); didn't like it for several reasons and the horn's flaws didn't make it any more enjoyable- wonderful hyper low C but a bleh everything else, sharp 4th partial AND flat fifth partial, lousy slide setup,... Some people scoff at this assessment but I've talked to tuba designers who've agreed. I eventually got a Miraphone 1281 F, much better but not a really great low end below low C.


I think my ideal quintet setup would be a great small bass tuba, a large independent bass trombone with a shallow contra mp, and a 2341 for jazzy charts.

[Mark E. Chachich]

When I played in brass quintets (mid to late 1980s) I used my Meinl Weston 32.

Mark

[Billy M.]

That was way back and musicians did not have playing cards such as they did for baseball players. I first met Fletcher in the early 70s when the LSO was in Ames, Iowa. Before the concert I went back stage behind the curtain and ask to meet John. Out comes this thin little guy with the Amish looking beard and the wild curly hair, Was I surprised. He was also surprised that anyone would ask to see him and we became very close friends after that. I think I learned more about tuba playing from just hanging around with him, than I ever did in formal studies. But that has nothing to do with small CC tubas. I have a habit of hyjacking threads. Sorry.

This is the kinda stuff I love to find out. Sadly, he passed while I was in my pre-tuba years. I love his sound.

Back on track. Personally, because of my affinity for the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble, I think the quintessential brass quintet tuba is a compensating Eb with 19" bell.

However, I really like the idea of a small-ish CC in brass quintet. Center City Brass Quintet is one of my favorite quintets as well and Craig Knox speaks about how he always played CC in quintet. His recordings show he does a PHENOMENAL job in that setting with that equipment (alright, he does a phenomenal job in any music setting).

I've never been one for F tuba in the setting as I feel a certain amount of depth is missing. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

[Lee Stofer]

The concept of sound in your head is as important as the instrument in your lap, I think. Sure, some instruments make it easier, and I found the Rudolf Meinl 3/4 CC to be a fantastic quintet horn, but I've also used a number of other instruments that worked rather well, from an antique Conn Eb to a Boosey Eb, a Meinl-Weston 45S-LP F-tuba, a Thein bass trombone, a Mirafone CC, an Alex BBb, a Hirsbrunner 4/4 CC and even my Rudi 5/4 CC and a Conn 34J 6/4 BAT.

One consideration should be the literature, and what will best accomplish the desired result. It seems to me that most of the works from the 1950's through the 1970's seem to be written to where they lay very well on a CC. Since the 1980's the F-tuba has been really coming to the fore as a solo-and-small ensemble instrument, and I get the feeling that a number of newer works were written with the bass tuba in mind. Some piece work extremely well with a larger tuba, but I've also found some very early - and modern pieces that worked very well using a very dark-sounding bass trombone instead. The bottom line is to be musically aware, and do the best you can with what you have.

[TheHatTuba]

I just ordered a larger bore F tuba (not an April Fool's joke) than my will-never-sell-it 4+2-rotor Symphonie model (same config).

[bisontuba]

I just ordered a larger bore F tuba (not an April Fool's joke) than my will-never-sell-it 4+2-rotor Symphonie model (same config).

Stop the presses!!!!!!!!

[Z-Tuba Dude]

' was able - years ago - to attend a live recital of the original-membership Empire Quintet with SP playing a YCB-621.
my reaction: "nope"...

Interesting to hear you say that, Joe.

My sense always was that the original CANADIAN Brass worked exceedingly well with Chuck D. on the YCB-621, but then their sound as an ensemble was fairly light & bright (in fact, wasn't that the name of one of their albums???), so the YCB-621 worked very well in that context.

My sense of the original EMPIRE Brass personnel was that they were a little more orchestral in their approach, requiring a slightly heavier sound on the bottom, to balance the upper voices.

I have long believed that the choice of tuba (the instrument) has a disproportionally influential effect on the overall musical character of a quintet. Of course the trumpets set the "tone" of the group, but perhaps being the "foundation" of the group is what gives the tuba so much influence in the overall sonority.

[groovlow]

Just curious...does anyone use a Mirafone 184-5U CC for anything these days?

No, but i will for cash.
Perfect horn for the job, although out of style at the moment.
Soon as Miraphone creates an updated version with a bigger wrap
on the bugle and an inch larger bell, it'll be the rage for quintet.
Joe "currently styling Eb horns" Hunter

[bisontuba]

Just curious...does anyone use a Mirafone 184-5U CC for anything these days?

No, but i will for cash.
Perfect horn for the job, although out of style at the moment.
Soon as Miraphone creates an updated version with a bigger wrap
on the bugle and an inch larger bell, it'll be the rage for quintet.
Joe "currently styling Eb horns" Hunter

I 'believe' the new 184 CC's have the old 185 bell size on them (15"), and the new 185 CC's have the old 186 bell size on them (16+")....