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Can the TNFJ help me solve a mystery?

I've been playing a 19 inch bell B&S tuba for the last 10 or so years. It is visually quite similar to a PT-6, and when I bought it from Dillon Music, it was advertised as such, but I know B&S has made instruments that look very much like PT-6's but are not. Is this a PT-6? And what exactly is a PT-5?
(Full disclosure, I started down this journey of trying to figure out what my instrument exactly is because I'll be selling it soon, and I'd like to be certain of what I have).

This is what my tuba looks like (note: the leadpipe was moved a bit higher by a previous owner)




I can't tell any difference between this instrument and modern PT-6's with regards to the wrap of the tubing. Some older B&S tubas of this size have their main tuning slide exit routed through the third valve tuning slide, which is not the way a PT-6's main tuning slide is routed. A few examples of that from tubenet:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41289
viewtopic.php?t=55163&p=470278#p470289

I've seen these differently wrapped tubas with 19 inch bells called PT-5's, but I've also seen instruments wrapped like mine called PT5's as well. For example, this B&S advertisement Neptune posted here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32059&p=281539&hilit=PT5#p281372 and this horn that was listed for sale as a PT-5 from a while back http://s149.photobucket.com/user/euphba ... t=3&page=1

So, are there 2 instruments that B&S called the PT-5? Is one of them identical or nearly identical to the PT-6? What on Earth have I been playing for the past 12 years?!? And can we get to the bottom of this by measuring our tubas?

On the collar that attaches my bottom bow attaches to the bell, my instrument measures about 16 in.
On the collar that attaches the bottom bow to the top bow, my instrument measures about 11 and 1/2 in.

If some other PT-6 and PT-5 / mystery B&S 5/4 owners chimed in with their measurements and tuning slide wraps, it would definitely be appreciated!

I had one of those that I bought new from CMC in 1990. It was billed as the PT5 "York Model". Kind of a big 4/4. Great high register lousy low register and goofy intonation. I thought it had a nice sound until a few years later when the PT6 came out. CMC response to me was "yeah, we got that one (PT5) wrong". They're not bad horns, IMO, but you gotta work at them.

Your tuba looks like a "tall" PT-4. B&S used the same PT-4 name on two different tubas.

1) The "tall" PT-4 CC tuba had .748" bore in all the rotor valves just like the PT-1(3103) BBb tuba that it was made from. Same bell & bottom bow. If I said that was a PT-6 I must have just been hit in the head by a wayward sousaphone. I do mutter and it has been more than 10 years since one of those tall ones came through the store. Measure the slide tubing. If the 1st and 4th rotor have the same bore tubing you have a "tall" PT-4.
2) At some point in time they came out with a "short" PT-4 (4096/2) with graduated bore rotors that was basically a PT-3 with a bigger bell. And like the PT-3 (3097/2), the "short" PT-4 had graduated rotor valves.
3) Then there was indeed a PT-5 that had graduated valves and was bigger (fatter and taller than a "short" PT-4 but not as big as the current PT-6. Supposedly the PT-5 rotor and a few piston (4 valve only) versions were York taper horns. The guys that have those rotor PT-5's aren't giving them up. I suspect the PT-5 was discontinued when the "short" PT-4 came out.
4) Then came the bigger PT-6 that is currently model B&S 3098

That is my opinion based upon the pictures you have posted.

Matt and Tom, thanks for the great info!

I don't have a set of inside calipers to measure the bore sizes with any kind of precision, but the fourth valve slide doesn't even come close to fitting into the first valve tubing. So this tuba must have has graduated bore, and isn't a "tall" PT-4.

Hopefully someone who is sure they have a PT-5 like this (there probably aren't be too many!) will be able to chime in with their bottom bow measurements to be sure, but based on your guys' info + that catalog picture, I think that's what I have. The bottom bow measurements I took are only about 10% smaller than a PT-6, so differentiating my instrument from a PT-6 visually, even in person, would be very tough!

I like it a lot as a large ensemble instrument, and since I guess it won't fetch as much as a PT-6, maybe I'll have to hold onto it.

Send Bob Tucci the serial number, on the mouthpiece receiver. He has records of "B & S" production.

Eugene

Eugene,
Unfortunately, all Bob Tucci had for me when I contacted him (years ago) was a date of manufacture.

You should get in touch with Baltimore Brass. Over the last year or two, they've had both a "tall PT-4" and a piston PT-5 in the shop. I'm pretty sure they'd know what you have, and/or be able to estimate its value.

That looks very much like a 5. If you had the chance to set a 5 and 6 next to each other, the differences would be very clear. The bows are all a bit larger, but the wrap is very similar. I owned a piston model from 1990-94. Compared to the rotor version, very good intonation. With a PT-88 also a killer low range.

The rotor version was a bit of a dog, but it was as CMC stated, just the test run for the PT6....

Hello daktx2,

please pm me your serialnumber plus the bell diameter.


Regards,
TheBerlinerTuba

bigboymusic wrote:That looks very much like a 5 ..... With a PT-88 also a killer low range.

The low range on this rotary one is also a ton of fun. The upper register requires some extra care though.

TheBerlinerTuba wrote:Hello daktx2,

please pm me your serialnumber plus the bell diameter.


Regards,
TheBerlinerTuba

PM sent!

I do believe that is the exact horn I sold Dillons many years ago (circa 1999 or early 2000's).

I have a picture but cannot add it here. I will post it on my facebook.

I do believe that is the exact horn I sold Dillons many years ago (circa 1999 or early 2000's).

I have a picture but cannot add it here. I will post it on my Facebook.

I remember the leadpipe markings and the worn finger prints on the levers. I loosed up the tuning slide so I could move it freely. I loved that horn and did a stupid thing selling it. I got married and she was fussing about money. Argh!! If you know of it I will buy it back or trade for a PT-6 piston with vented valves. Sweet horn. I know that is my PT-5 horn.

Original poster here! PM sent.

Wow! What a great story!

Congratulations to the both of you!

But what happen to the wife?

CCC

Matt that was my old horn - Dorian.

I miss that horn. The intonation on certain notes was weird, but I developed a ton of alternate fingerings that kept it in tune. The resonance was beyond any horn I played - it spoke well. I am willing to offer up to $6000 to get it back.

Hit me up dparreott2@gmail.com

Dorian,

I sold it about a year ago to a young man in LA. Great tuba!

Daniel