"downsizing" contrabass tubas...

[pjv]

I got rid of my last 6/4 a year ago (Conn 36J). My largest axe right now is a BBb Alex. I've never considered my 40k to be 6/4, but regardless...
I found 6/4 tuba's usefull in the past soley when I wanted the weight and width behind a sound. Even when playing soft, it was still an elephant being dainty. Times where I was the only bass instrument in a large accoustic ensemble I found that a wide sound could sometimes allow me to do my job with less effort. A smaller tuba would have delivered more clarity, but I would have had to up my volume. The larger tuba allowed me to support the ensemble at lower volumes. The sound was low and wide, so you always heard it.
Often I can't hear the reason a musician chooses to use a 6/4 tuba in an orchestra.
On the other hand if a musician plays 90% of the time in the same concert hall it seems to reason that their instrument choice will also reflect the necessities of the hall (and the musical tastes of ones colleagues).

[Tom]

I think that 6/4 CC tubas will eventually be treated as special purpose instruments, much the way that big rotary BBb tubas are these days in American orchestras (Fafner, etc.) and, for that matter, even the way that F tubas are approached by American orchestral players. I suspect that we'll see 6/4 tubas physically shrinking (already happening) and that the next hot market segment will be high-end (professional? ) 5/4 sized CC tubas, of which there are some fine choices, but not very many choices.

I also think that the influence of Arnold Jacobs on equipment choice is diminishing a bit. It has now been just about an entire generation since Jacobs died, nearly 20 years. Many of today's most notable orchestral players are too young to have ever studied with Jacobs directly and many of the professionals that did so are retired or (likely) retiring soon, thus Jacobs' influence upon them and the tuba world as a whole in terms of equipment choice and possibly even overall sound concept is not what is was 35 years ago when several companies were trying to figure out how to copy the York and big name players couldn't wait to get one.

I don't believe that a 6/4 CC tuba is a defacto primary instrument requirement for symphony orchestras to not be out-gunned either. Many 4/4 and 5/4 CC tubas can make plenty of noise and can cut through or blend as necessary. Look at orchestral F tubas: even the huge ones are much, much smaller than 6/4 CC tubas and they make plenty of noise even in the largest orchestras. Going back to CC tubas...most of the fine playing that was done in Houston, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Boston, National, and Los Angeles for decades (you know, the eras/players/recordings that always get talked up here) was done on 4/4 or 5/4 sized tubas like Miraphones or Alexanders. Evidence, to me, that those smaller instruments can work just fine in even the largest and strongest of symphony orchestras.

[bort]

Tom, great point about the influence of Arnold Jacobs.

Makes me wonder a bit about the influence of Alan Baer, since he (re?)designed and uses a 6/4 tuba. It's a VERY fine horn, and many people use them successfully... but... if you wanted to buy a lightly used one, you will have a LOT of options. I'm curious about what the big guy himself thinks about the 6/4 horn, and the appropriateness/need for using it. Or, how much he might advocate for using the Ursus instead of the Baer...?

Or more generally, what do 6/4 players say to other tuba players about using a 6/4? Do they recommend it? Or is it like long-time smokers, where yeah, they'll smoke with you if you smoke. But if you don't smoke, they'll tell you "don't start!"

[PaulMaybery]

I'm a late comer to the BAT. It has taken nearly 3 years to where I feel I can use it almost anywhere. Much of that is on the personal end of the skills, being breath control,very acute intonation and a very sensitive and flexible embouchure. I use it regularly with a rather good civic symphony orchestra of 80 some players. It has a way of lifting the wind/brass section rather than just being a pointed sound that penetrates with the rest of the brass. You may care to call that "ambience." I call it "presence." I find when I play under the other brasses, it produces such a full and solid foundation without sounding forced, that it helps them play more relaxed, even though it may be fff. It necessitated that I learn to play with next to no tension or stress in my sound, accomplished by way of an open throat and very well expanded and relaxed chest cavity. It's really a concept. I do not believe I could get the same results with a 4/4 tuba. I tried for 40 some years. So I am staying on the band wagon with the 6/4. I need wheels to schlepp it, but once at the gig, I'm able to offer a valuable asset of sound. With regard to using it in bands, I think at least 2 of them would be fine. Most of the major service bands are sporting them and get a rather "healthy" sound at that. But then again, there is a certain level of personal expertise that is assumed, that goes beyond just a huge instrument. I would not knock the instrument before first evaluating the play. Sounds nasty, but ....
And yes... in response to Bort's comment about the bass trombone. Yup, a real healthy bridge between the tuba and the tenor trombones is important. Much of the tuba sound, particularly in orchestras is complimented by the bass trombone and bass trombonist; someone who can put their sound right into the tuba sound and make it like one enormous voice. (Bight and sonority)

[Donn]

It necessitated that I learn to play with next to no tension or stress in my sound, accomplished by way of an open throat and very well expanded and relaxed chest cavity.

It doesn't sound like you're on the path to injuring yourself, either, if that's even how it happens.

[tofu]

I see I'm not the only one...

...Many from top-of-the-food-chain to students are "moderating"...

Ironic that our OP has these two recent posts: The first one for a Siegfried and the second for a Yamayork

Perhaps (??)
With these heavy-hitters praising the new one and shrugging off the amazing one, the amazing one will be mothballed, and that been-to-many-shows amazing one's demo price will drop down into the blokezone.

$2000 cash down payment
The rest ($38000) financed by you at 30% interest, with one balloon payment made by me which comes due in 480 months.

That crafty like a Fox Bloke all the while he is talking down BAT's has two current offers out there looking to pick em up cheap.

[MartyNeilan]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested. The BAT/BART project I have worked on for years is NOT a foghorn, but has a rich and clear but all-encompassing sound. It is a foundation for the ensemble that a much smaller horn does not have in girth of sound.

[bububassboner]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested.

I just don't recall any music director or choir director or community band director (hired for a rehearsal-concert / regulars-out-of-town situations) or small combo leaders or brass quintet colleagues EVER suggesting to me that I bring or should-have-brought any-tuba-in-particular.

I have. 3 different brass quintets, a brass choir, and a German orchestra have all asked for my 6/4 CC tuba. For the brass choir and the orchestra I have no issue with that, but man I hate it when brass quintets ask for it. It's so much more work for me than playing a small C for my Eb tuba. Now I never let brass quintets know that I even own one.

[PaulMaybery]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested.

I just don't recall any music director or choir director or community band director (hired for a rehearsal-concert / regulars-out-of-town situations) or small combo leaders or brass quintet colleagues EVER suggesting to me that I bring or should-have-brought any-tuba-in-particular.

It's a rare situation when a conductor really knows how to "talk tuba" and understand fully the sublties of the size of the horn. The obvious is that many are scared when they see a BAT. But in reality, they may have been turned off by a blatty sounding smaller horn that simply had too much edge. They then transfer this sound image to the BAT and believe it will be just as bad only bigger and more offensive.

The BAT will do whatever you want. I find that the softs are not just "soft" but actually rather mysterious and compelling with a depth of character. Part of that is the harmonic complexity of the larger taper.

I think I have seduced our orchestra conductor in believing in the BAT. I've made an extra effort to present the soft playing with an obvious air of elegance and color. It's pretty normal to expect that the louds will be huge, when necessary.
When he cues the bones and tuba these days, I see him take a big breath and puff up like an ol' bull frog. I think he likes what he hears. It's my job to see that he does.

My take is, if you want to keep using it in an ensemble, then playing it with ultimate musicianship will likely win you some points. It is only a tool in the hands of a craftsman musician, and it must be mastered.

[Three Valves]

I never ask a question that I won't like the answer to!!

[bububassboner]

...or (unlike me) solicited opinions of baton-wavers who (often like medical doctors) view themselves as experts-in-everything.
"

Oh god no. First rule is to never talk to the director unless they talk to you. I agree with your view that they tend to see themselves as experts in everything and engaging them tends to be an unenjoyable time.

With the German Orchestra I had both a B&S Symphonie and my 6/4 CC. It was my first time playing with a German group like this so I was a little worried about using the big horn. One of the tunes had some big low stuff so switched to the CC and during the next break the conductor asked me to use the big tuba for the entire concert. I was a little shocked at that but the trombones loved it and I still got paid the same.

[hbcrandy]

Looking at the orchestral tuba players that were in the major orchestras during the early and middle part of his career, the largest thing seen in most cases (probably excluding exceptions here and there such as Philadelphia using a sousaphone for Fantasia by Disney) is probably an Alex 163.

I just want to clear up a minor point the above quote. I asked Mr. Torchinsky about the Sousaphone seen in the on-screen orchestra in Fantasia. He told me that the orchestra seen on-screen in the movie was not the Philadelphia Orchestra, but, a bunch of Hollywood studio actors for the film. The entire sound track heard was the Philadelphia Orchestra. The Sousaphone was included for visual appeal. At one point In the film, the silhouette of a tuba player is seen taking his seat. He is a slender man with what appears to be a rotary valved tuba. Mr. Torchinsky said that is DEFINITELY not the silhouette of Phillip Donatelli who was the tuba player at that time.

[Three Valves]

I wondered if Mel Torme told the Tuba player backing up Judy Garland to bring the Big Honkin' Tuba w/recording bell...

[Donn]

When I brought my new-to-me BAT into rehearsal ... if there are bands where the director asks players to bring specific instruments, this isn't one of them, but neither is it one where the director comments on how anyone's horn sounds, and I did get that comment. Which could sure be construed as encouragement. You know, "bring whatever tuba you want, it's totally up to you as it must be, but I'm just saying, I wet myself with ecstasy when you played that BAT."

[MartyNeilan]

The majority of time I have brought a smaller tuba in recent years (college/community orchestra, large church orchestra) the bigger tuba was always requested. The BAT/BART project I have worked on for years is NOT a foghorn, but has a rich and clear but all-encompassing sound. It is a foundation for the ensemble that a much smaller horn does not have in girth of sound.

Wow, I didn't think that would stir the pot so much.
The sound of the big tuba was appreciated. A much smaller horn didn't bring the same depth. Other players and the guy waving the stick (who in one case was a trombone/euph professional) much preferred the sound of the big horn. That's all.
Doesn't matter, I don't play with either group anymore and recently "semi-retired" from tuba playing due to tinnitus and other hearing issues after gradually backing off the past couple of years.
If I ever get back in the game again, it is good to know that a pocket tuba is now instrument of choice.

[Michael Bush]

it is good to know that a pocket tuba is now instrument of choice.

I brought a pocket tuba to a rehearsal once, not that long ago, when it was the only cc tuba in my possession. (The Nirschl was... somewhere. Maybe in the shop getting the 5th valve slide worked on, the 2J was where it has been for a year, in a shop in another part of the country, and the only full size tuba on hand was a BBb, which I never play anymore.) The band director pretended to think it was amusing. If that situation arises again, I'll just skip.

[Rick Denney]

We keep talking about BATs as if it is a homogeneous concept. It is not. A 36J is quite different from a Holton 345 (not that any two 345's are alike), and both are different from a BMB, a Willson 3050 or 3100, a Siegfried, or whatever. Some play softly very well, and others only with difficulty. Some play reasonably in tune, and others require major effort. Some are highly resonant in the hands and provide wonderful feedback, and others are disconnected and distant from the player. Some are woofy, and others colorful. Some provide color but not loudness, and others provide loudness and darkness with less color. Some are super-efficient, and some suck the air right out of you. All big tubas share some characteristics, but they differ from each other just as much as 4/4 tubas do.

If there is one type that seems like it would beat up the player, it's the type that is disconnected and that provides little feedback. The resonant, high-feedback examples are no harder to play than smaller tubas, and for some effects, they are easier.

But an edgy, pointed sound is not what they do. The question is: When do we as tuba players want an edgy, pointed sound? I can think of some examples, and they make me want to bring my F tuba.

Paul talks about all these skills that are required, and I'm pretty sure I don't have them. But whatever a good big tuba does for a pro it also does for me. The pro just has a much better starting point.

Rick "who rarely plays the 4/4 tubas" Denney

[Michael Bush]

What if the chip has two read streaks on it...??

Are they "weird" too, like the green place? All weird colors on a chip mean the chip is staying in the bowl.

[pjv]

If I understand this correctly, i believe the roots of this conversation have to do with the tuba as an orchestral instrument and how that sound concept is changing.

The 6/4 tuba; a large tuba which lays down an enormous wide sound as a kind of mattress for the rest of the orchestra to lye on. Or jump on. Or sleep on. Whatever.

I think that tuba players themselves are moving towards tubas that have a bit more clarity in the sound and are less ever-present. A tuba that can blend into or underneath the sound of the orchestra as apposed to always being heard no matter what. A tuba whose articulation is heard just a bit better because the sound of that tuba is less massive.
Voila, the 5/4 tuba: the 6/4 tuba thats been doing some training, is a bit fitter and has learned not always to try to dominate the conversation.

[Donn]

If there is one type that seems like it would beat up the player, it's the type that is disconnected and that provides little feedback.

This suggests, does it not, that a forward facing bell puts its player at risk for this reason?