What makes a horn play 'tight' or 'loose'?

[jon112780]

Several years ago, I had two HB2's side by side (I think mine was a '78 and his was perhaps an '84). The '84 played tighter, with narrower slots, with slightly quicker response, and began to get edgy sooner when played loudly compared the '78. Other than tarnish and silver plating wear they looked identical. I don't know if the rotors on either were plastic or metal. Neither had any leaks that I could tell, no repairs had been done to either of them, and I used the same Conn Helleberg mouthpiece on both. The owner of the other HB2 agreed with my findings and we went back to playing duets.

What could most likely contribute to this much difference within the same model?

[bort]

Keep in mind, with handmade tubas, there is a lot more variation between horns than you might find with "production" models. And even though those are both modern-era horns, those tubas are (now, basically) 30 and 40 year old horns now, and the manufacturing processes were not as precise as they are today. Plus, maybe the metal on one tuba is thicker, worked over more, or otherwise just "built differently" than the other tuba was. That could account for some of this variation.

Also, what Brian said (which are much simpler issues, and probably more likely, as well).

[roweenie]

An interesting question, that can have answers that are difficult, if not impossible, to prove.

It should be noted that there are things such as manufacturing inconsistencies that go on, hidden inside the horn that can make a great difference. There are theories, proposed by very knowledgeable folks, that there are specific places on the horn, such as where the mouthpipe or the main tuning slide meet the valve block, that if there are even slight anomalies (a solder blob, etc.), can make a significant difference in response.

I have a "pet theory" that the taper of the mouthpipe can be crucial, also. If they are drawn by hand, no two are exactly the same; and even a small difference could possibly change things considerably. These differences may also be undetectable to the eye, but only noticeable by careful measurement with a caliper.

There is also the "node and anti-node" theory, which my non-scientific mind has a hard time comprehending.

As a side note, how a horn "feels" to us while we play it may have little or nothing to do with how it "sounds" to those who are listening.

Or, there's a leak in the MTS water key....

[PaulMaybery]

A few things have passed through my mind on this subject.

Compression: or a good seal at the valves and no leaky joints.
Metal hardness: Is the horn relatively soft metal that is still malleable and annealed? Softer metal has been thought to give a brighter/brassier sound. Whereas hardened, such as hand hammered brass was thought to be darker, a bit more fundamental and less brassy. Of course these terms are subjective. A good example are the traditional Vienna horn with relatively soft brass that has a real "bark" to it. For stabilizing the sound, a rather wide garland is attached to the bell rim.
The leadpipe taper, is in my opinion a very large issue, particularly if all other things are equal. This, coupled with the design and insertion point of the MP, can have serious effect on the slotting.
Assembly, are the joints smoothly connected without irregularities. Only a scope will let you examine the interior for problems. Yes, blobs of solder can have a definte effect.

I was part of a lead pipe/and parts experiment a few years back. Actually I was merely part of the jury. My ears were requested.
A manufacturer had produced a number of custom parts: lead pipe, tuning crook, and bell.
Over the experiment, which took most of the afternoon, the various parts were exchanged. Each one made a noticable difference in the playing quality. The lead pipe and the bell, had the sharpest contrast when changed out. The lead pipe (4 of them) were all uniquely different. Some just loud, others with a beautiful harmonic mix that was to die for.

We noted the differences and continued to the next phase which was to start combining them. When we took the best of the three parts, (leadpipe, bell and tuning crook) and put them all on the same instrument, the result was horrible. They more or less cancelled out each other. What we had done was dramatically reduce the amount of resistance in the overall design. It was pointed out by one of the consultants for a major manufacturer, that the key to the nature of the instrument is the turbulence in the air column. To quote him: "It's all about turbulence (or resistance)."

How all the factors are balanced pretty much determines the "nature of the beast." A few generations back, in the days before CNC machines, variation in the same model of instrument was pretty much expected due to irregular assembly. Today, consistant instrument parts and uniform assembly, generally produce instruments that are like "peas in a pod." Hence they seem to play very similar. I'm sure that is why, in the clone business, most of the horns play almost identically. If you're looking to find one that has a little bit different feel or response, you are likely not going to find it. Best there to go with one of the older European companies where there is still a lot of hands on work.

But look at a tuba as a large equation. All the elements effect something. Something has to be different to make a horn play differently. "If nothing changes, then nothing changes."

[arpthark]

Those with small mouthpipe tubes have been those with more slippery playing characteristics.

Could you give some examples of the horns you're talking about? I've got a Mirafone from the early 60s (with the small mouthpipe) and it plays like a dream.

[TheHatTuba]

Those with small mouthpipe tubes have been those with more slippery playing characteristics.

Could you give some examples of the horns you're talking about? I've got a Mirafone from the early 60s (with the small mouthpipe) and it plays like a dream.

Could be mistaken, but I believe the Miraphone 186 CC's from the early 1960's have a larger mouthpipe than the ones they started using in the late 60's/early 70's. The dream part is probably the thin, hand-formed bows.