York, Yorkmaster, Yamayork, Yorkbrunner

[hup_d_dup]

How many are there?

How are they related (or are they related) to each other?

What is the history?

Hup

[Rick Denney]

The history is well-stated in a variety of places, but here's a quick summary:

York: J.W. York, J.W. York and Son, J.W. York and Sons, York Band Instrument Company: Names for different periods of the same Grand Rapids factory. They made, in 1931, the instruments owned by Arnold Jacobs and now owned by the Chicago Symphony. The instruments were first made at the request of Philip Donatelli, who was responding to a request from Leopold Stokowski, who was his conductor in the Philadelphia Orchestra, for a large, organ-like tuba. Donatelli sold it soon after to Jacobs, who was his student at Curtis. The second instrument was sold to a school where it was later discovered and Jacobs acquired it.

York Master: York Band Instrument Company was purchased in 1941 by Carl Fischer, who used the Grand Rapids factory only for student-line instruments after WWII (during the war, they made shell casings). They had a line of professional-grade instruments made in Europe, mainly (but not solely) by Boehm & Meinl. The B&M factory was later acquired by Walter Nirschl (in 1991). The B&M-made instruments were marketed under the York Master label by Carl Fischer until the very early 70's. They were inspired by traditional York designs of 4/4 instruments, but it is a myth that they were made using the same tooling.

Yamayork: A Yamaha-made grand orchestral tuba made in the style of the York tuba owned by Arnold Jacobs and now owned by the Chicago Symphony. It came out within the last decade.

Yorkbrunner: In 1978, Hirsbrunner measured, and then because of shipping damage, overhauled the second of the two York tubas that Jacobs owned. They developed a limited run of hand-made copies of that instrument based on those measurements. Later, they made a production version, which they designated the HB-50.

NirschlYork: A copy of the first of the Yorks, based on measurements by Floyd Cooley during a rotation through the Chicago Symphony, made by Walter Nirschl starting maybe a couple of decades ago.

Yorkophone: Any grand orchestra tuba made in the style of the York owned by Jacobs. The first of these was probably the Holton 345, which Holton made for Jacobs to use in the Holton-sponsored Chicago Symphony Brass Quintet, in the early 50's. This became a production model in both C and Bb. The Holton spawned its own fork of this development, and influenced the Meinl-Weston 2165 and its descendants.

Rick "nothing new under the sun" Denney

[imperialbari]

Not all York Master instruments were professional models. There were 3 pistons, small bore tubas that were clearly student models.

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

Not all York Master instruments were professional models. There were 3 pistons, small bore tubas that were clearly student models.

Klaus

I should have put professional in quotes.

Rick "who knows some professionals who play three-valve, small-bore tubas, but that's another story" Denney

[imperialbari]

There may be discussions whether the large bore, 19mm/0.750", York Master are truly of a professional quality. They have dimensions similar to many current professional models.

But there was a different series of York Master tubas that looked skinny and open, as opposed to the fairly compact larger bore instruments, which had the not very common bore of 0.715".

Both types are represented in my gallery.

Klaus

[Tubajug]

So cso york #1 is by nirschl and cso york #2 is by hirsbrunner? Has anyone ever done a side by side?

They were both made by York, but were copied by others later on.

[DouglasJB]

I have tried both a Yorkbrunner and a Nirschl (not at the same time) both were great horns, but the Nirschl seemed much easier to play and hold, it was just a fun horn to play. (Though a sidebar, the 4/4 hand made Nirschls are a blast too)

[hup_d_dup]

Thank you Rick, that was an excellent summary.

As I understand your post, the original two tubas (of no model name), the Yamayork, the Yorkbrunner, the NirschhlYork, the Holton 345 and the Meinl-Weston 2165 are all described to be, either explicitly or by association, 6/4 tubas. They all have, to some degree, design similarities.

The York Master is a 4/4 instrument of unrelated design.

Hup

[The Big Ben]

Sorry, my question was asking about the copies of the two cso yorks. #1 was copied by nirschl and #2 was copied by hirsbrunner? Anyone? Anyone?

That's what the post suggests.

[Rick Denney]

Thank you Rick, that was an excellent summary.

As I understand your post, the original two tubas (of no model name), the Yamayork, the Yorkbrunner, the NirschhlYork, the Holton 345 and the Meinl-Weston 2165 are all described to be, either explicitly or by association, 6/4 tubas. They all have, to some degree, design similarities.

The York Master is a 4/4 instrument of unrelated design.

Hup

The 6/4 tubas were copied from the instruments made desirable through the influence of Arnold Jacobs. Beyond that, the design wasn't particular popular except with that group, and that group was small at first. The center of the market was in 4/4 instruments, and among the Anerican companies King was particularly popular in the 50's. Carl Fischer was clearly aiming at that market with the York Master, though the inspiration was the York Model 712, not the King. I think it is safe to say that their strategy wasn't successful. In the 60's, the competition for that concept were rotary Alexanders and Miraphones, supported by players like Roger Bobo exerting their own influence. By the 70's, high-school and college kids (of which I was one) wanted rotary tubas.

There is a mythical relationship between the 4/4 and 6/4 Yorks, and it may even be a true myth. The descendants of those Model 712 Yorks are instruments like the York Master, the Getzen G50/Canadian Brass CB-50, and the B&S GR41. But there has been more divergence in that progeny.

But all the copies were trying to solve problems with the originals without undermining what made them special, so the copies have diverged while claiming to be the most faithful to the originals.

Rick "every copy is faithful to the original except where it isn't" Denney

[Rev Rob]

When I last visited Baltimore Brass this past April, Fred showed me a YamaYork still in a plastic bag. Someone had ordered it and soon would pick it up. It was a beautiful, silver plated tuba, with huge piston valves - and you too can own one for $40,000.

[Roger Lewis]

Actually the early yorkbrunners were copies of the #2 York, the rehearsal horn.

In 1995 Hirsbrunner got the measurements of the #1 York, the concert horn, and made these changes to their production instruments. Through 1994, yorkbrunners were handmade. Starting in 1995 they developed tooling for making the large bows using hydraulic presses. Mine is a 1994 but has several modifications from the 1995 models though it is a handmade Yorkbrunner.

Just my $0.02.
Roger

[happyroman]

Actually the early yorkbrunners were copies of the #2 York, the rehearsal horn.

In 1995 Hirsbrunner got the measurements of the #1 York, the concert horn, and made these changes to their production instruments. Through 1994, yorkbrunners were handmade. Starting in 1995 they developed tooling for making the large bows using hydraulic presses. Mine is a 1994 but has several modifications from the 1995 models though it is a handmade Yorkbrunner.

Just my $0.02.
Roger

And this is going even deeper down the rabbit hole. York #2 was supposedly the better instrument until Jake took it in to have the leadpipe patched. Instead of patching it, however, the repair tech replaced it with a new and completely different leadpipe (possibly smaller?) and the other York became the better playing instrument. Much to Jake's chagrin, the original leadpipe was thrown away and never found.