Amping Up

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tubajoe
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Re: Amping Up

Post by tubajoe »

You don't need line level inputs and you don't need a separate mixer... you just need an XLR to 1/4 line-level transformer. They are about $15, buy a few as they break pretty easily.

I play into an amp 100+ nights a year and have had to use just about everything under the sun in various backlines... there's a fine art to it and it's always a work in progress.

Tone-wise, I prefer Ampeg the best. End of story... their philosophy (low wattage running high into arrays of 10" speakers) seem to lend themselves really well to the EQ curve of the tuba... which is quite a bit different than the EQ of an e-bass. (Bloke, wanna sell that B-15?!)

I have a couple of varying sizes of Ampegs, but... shlepping and weight are issues. I've also had a couple of GKs. GKs are powerful and built like tanks (even the lightweight ones), but tone-wise (for me) they can get a bit gnarly and finicky. Hartkes are basically "throw away" amps (inexpensive/disposable, which is not a always bad thing, that's why they are commonly backlined) but they can sound relatively decent (the biamp tube/solid head that's common is actually very flexible and decent sounding). I've had good luck with Markbass too, as well as a good ol Hiwatt. Peavy is another inexpensive and built-tough option, but they can be pretty raw sounding (there's a reason thrash bands prefer Peavey bass rigs!)

I like the tuba sound, for most things, to be pretty smooth and warm (and still natural sounding), and then with a limited amount of grit in it should the music warrant it... for when I'm in a bass role.

In general, in my opinion SIMPLE amps tend to sound a bit better (even for softer lighter things) than more boutique-y hi-powered jazz amps... which seem to be much harder to dial in. I strongly think that, in general, since the tuba has a fatter EQ curve (while not as low) than an e-bass, an amp that is basic and plays flat is the way to go...

Keep in mind this... in some ways, the tuba is the OPPOSITE of an electric bass. The basic input EQ of an electric bass is very flat, so the player uses the amp (and various other things) to fatten, expand, and sculpt that EQ.
The tuba on the other hand has a curvier EQ and to get it to be usable to a house PA or just into the room blending with other instruments (while not obscuring them or washing them out; it overlaps with a lot of other instruments) we actually have to flatten the EQ a bit and compress the sound. This is really important. (...which is why amps/setups that make the tone more robust or colorful often are difficult with the tuba)

This all said, about a week ago, I played through one of the little cube Markbass combo amps that has been mentioned a handful of times in this thread. It was awesome and sounded big and warm for it's size. I'm gonna get one. For my small amp, right now I have a little Ampeg PF head and I use a small 210 cab. It's very light, and I love the sound of the head, but I actually liked the Markbass a bit more for a combo... for a small amp setup. I'm sold.

Also... another important caveat is that it depends on the room/PA versus the amount of brain damage the soundperson has sustained. :)

If the house PA has solid subs, you don't need a huge amp on stage. I've used a tiny 112 GK at a 5000 seat venue and it worked just fine. The amp needs to be big enough for the band (the drummer) to hear/feel your sound, and that's about it.

You need a larger amp for situations where there is not a house subwoofer, naturally. ...and a lot of it of course depends on the type of music. If you are doing cocktail-hour background musical wallpaper gigs, then you need something small with great tone. If you are playing a dance party, then you need something with more oomph to make the rumps bump!
...the amp is part of your tuba sound. (not just something to make it louder)

I will add this (going a bit on a tangent)... because it is a HUGE pet peeve, is the somehow newish trend of soundpeople insisting on taking the bass signal direct into the house via direct box before the amp, so they alone have the control of the bass tone. In medium venues and up, this is the setup 19/20 times... and it can be death for the tuba in my opinion. Insist on that the line to the house be post-amp, that way YOU have the control over the basic tone... simply as *you* know what you want your TUBA to sound like better than the soundperson. You give them the tone you want, and let them adapt it for their room.

Another thing, keep your setups SIMPLE. If there is anything complicated or fancy-looking, such as unfamiliar mic-setups, boutique equipment etc etc, chances are the sound person is just gonna turn you way down to the point of inaudible. Don't give them reason to. They feel like they look like a fool if there is any feedback or issues, and they are more concerned with that than what you actually sound like, so many times, if there is strange stuff, the'll just turn you down to the point of not being heard. (and then they'll say "thats your fault for playing a tuba and not a bass"...)

Much to my back's chagrin, I often schlep an amp simply so that I have the tone I want.

How to adapt the tuba sound into an amplified setup is a really important thing for tuba players!
Last edited by tubajoe on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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circusboy
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Re: Amping Up

Post by circusboy »

Wow, tubajoe! This is a lot of very helpful information. Thanks so much!

One other question for the gang: The mic I'm using has sensitivity down to 20 Hz. The lowest I see on the specs for most bass amps is 80 Hz. (I can't find specs for the Markbass.) I'm no technician/engineer, so I don't know whether or not this is of concern. If the amp only goes down to 80, am I losing part of the low end of what the horn and mic are delivering?
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Re: Amping Up

Post by jimgray »

Here's something else to think about...

What sort of sound are you going for?
And what sort of groups and rooms do you find yourself in?
As you've seen from the responses here, there is no single right answer.

You can optimize for:
cost
weight
flexibility
sounding like a bass
sounding like a tuba
high fidelity
volume
having something that will work for both tuba and bass
etc.

Each might take you down a different path.

Like Joe, I've been working on this for a really long time (over 25 years).
I've optimized for high fidelity and sounding exactly like I sound in the studio, given my musical situations.
That requires a high quality condenser mic, a good pre-amp, and a very efficient/powerful amp/speaker.
That doesn't come for cheap, but it is delivering exactly what I (and my bands) want.

Joe is really, really right - most sound guys have NO idea what the tuba is supposed to sound like.
Make your own call on what you want to sound like and make it happen on stage - own it.
Don't be afraid to buy/bring gear w you so you can control/define it.
Just like you do w every other aspect of your equipment choices...

Fun journey - good luck!
-Jim
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Re: Amping Up

Post by jimgray »

Here's a visual of my current rig.
Neumann KM-184
Presonus BlueTube Preamp
QSC K-12

I also use a good wireless system w this rig, which is a joy - not shown here.
Also, some effects from time to time.

Note the Bloke-like but commercially available microphone clip.
It's actually made for bass drums but works extremely well on sousaphones.
Puts the mic right in the sweet spot (for me) - worth every penny.
http://www.kellyshu.com/" target="_blank" target="_blank
tubajoe
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Re: Amping Up

Post by tubajoe »

jimgray wrote:Here's a visual of my current rig.
Neumann KM-184
Presonus BlueTube Preamp
QSC K-12
WOW, that setup is a thing of beauty! (I think that's the most hi-end live mic setup I've ever seen) ...and a preamp into a powered PA speaker... I'm totally curious!!!
"When you control sound, you control meat." -Arnold Jacobs
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Re: Amping Up

Post by jimgray »

swing by the next time you make it up to Boston, man.
Or I'll let you know when I'm next in the NYC w Cocek.
You'd dig it.
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Re: Amping Up

Post by GC »

@circusboy: the low frequency point you see on bass amps is not the point where it quits responding, it's just the point where low frequencies begin to significantly get less loud the lower you go. A lot of that is controlled by speaker size and by the voicing of the cabinet. A bass amp that bottoms out at 40hz will still produce audible low bass lower than that. Most bass amps show 50-40hz as their bottom rated freq. I wouldn't worry too much, as the fundamental frequency of 3rd ledger line A below the bass staff is 55hz.

The little MarkBass cube with the 12" speaker is fairly typical of rear-ported 12's with a quoted frequency bottom of 45hz. Some of their 15" cabinets and front ported dual 10" cabinets are rated 40hz. Some of their 15's are rated 45hz. Even though the 10's are much smaller than 15's, the vent/port design of the cabinet reinforces low-frequency resonance. The low B on my 6-string bass (about 31hz) is still plenty loud enough through my amp with 10's until I really push the volume hard.

If you still need more low frequency response, you can add another speaker cabinet that's made for more low response. You'll get more volume, better low response, and won't have to push the amp as hard. Of course, that's more to buy, more to haul around, and more to store . . .
Last edited by GC on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Amping Up

Post by tubajoe »

GC wrote:@circusboy: the low frequency point you see on bass amps is not the point where it quits responding, it's the point where low frequencies begin to significantly get less loud the lower you go. A lot of that is controlled by speaker size and by the voicing of the cabinet.......
YES ^^^^^^^^ this this this. We all like bass we can feel, but it can't be at the cost of tone... which is dictated by higher frequencies anyway. ...and worse, you don't want mud.

a 150lb Ampeg 810 fridge cab is rated to 58hz, and it's the gold standard.
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Re: Amping Up

Post by Beervangelist »

I'm a little late, but thought I'd share my experience anyway.

I recently brought tuba back into my life, and added it to my group where I also play electric bass. This means that I didn't need to go amp-hunting, so my answer will stray a bit from the original question.

In my experience, I realized I wanted to avoid the direct to PA situation, not only for the tonal reasons listed earlier in the thread, but also because I'm playing rock and funk situations, and I wanted to hear and feel the bass on stage, regardless of which instrument I was on. I do not like depending on monitors and sound people for this, as it's rarely successful. It's really tough to keep an ear on intonation if you can't hear yourself. It's also hard, though not impossible to groove in time if your sound is lost. You may be able to do that by feel, but if you can't hear it, it's likely your drummer can't either. So, I set out to get my tuba into my bass amp, which I feel is also the bigger challenge than choosing an amp.

The mic rigs I've seen on this thread are really cool and using a standard non-phantom mic has some advantages. I, however went to a Schure condenser instrument mic, which I clip on the bell, but it requires phantom, which bass amps don't have. It comes in wireless and wired, and I chose wireless. This means adding a compatible bodypack and receiver, but that's where we supplied the phantom power, and it has worked well for me. I chose to indulge and mount the receiver on a pedal board, and then take the signal from the receiver, through a tuner, preamp and volume pedal, before sending it to the amp. This allows for some hands-free adjustments, without turning to face the amp, which could be a feedback issue, not to mention difficult to do while trying to play. This solution also allows me to swap the body pack to my bass, and insert the 1/4" attachment and I'm good to go. The Preamp is mixed for sousaphone (when activated), and bypassed is mixed for bass.

I've come across two downsides. The first one is when I was in a major club with a beefy wireless system of their own. Mid-set I started losing the wireless battle and signal. My setup does not have a "wired" redundancy, so up went the vocal mic. Secondly, while it's compact in that I don't have to connect all the pedals, I just drop the pedal board and plug it into the amp, it's not so great for "sitting in", just because it's an additional thing to haul on stage. I'd like a wired situation that would travel a little lighter. That could be the Schure inst. mic (wired version of same mic) through a phantom pedal, or now that I've seen these other rigs, the bass drum clip looks pretty versatile as well and could use standard non-phantom mics.

Amp wise, most bass amps will do the trick and get you started. I was using an SWR Basic Black, but when that went down, I upgraded to the Ampeg Portaflex 500 and am in love with it. Lightweight, versatile and plenty of low end oomph.

The Rig: (with lots of expert advice from Sweetwater.com)

Wireless Mic SHURE BETA 98 HC -
Specify for Wired (XLR ) or Wireless (Body Pack) $209
Wireless Receiver BLX4 J10 $159 (phantom is addressed in this mic/bodypack/receiver combo)
Shure BLX1 Bodypack $139
MXR M81 Bass Preamp - shapes tone and addresses gain before amp $169

Mic in action:
Image

Hope it's useful information -





--
Fred
Last edited by Beervangelist on Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Amping Up

Post by Beervangelist »

I also want to just echo TubaJoe's point about not confusing the sound person. Having a DI from your amp is key, as I've had a few raised eyebrows at the pedal board, which isn't really doing anything complicated. Anyway - it all gets easy when you just ask them to take the DI out of your amp or mic it. The rest is on you.

I'm loving that KellyShu setup, and think that will be part of my hobo-sousaphone rig.
1926 BBb King Giant Sousaphone
1950's BBb "Metro - Lockie Music Exchange" stenciled "Spaghetti York" Sousaphone
1997 Carvin 5-String fretless bass
http://www.strappingowls.com
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Re: Amping Up

Post by Beervangelist »

Look out, I've discovered my old Photobucket account..

The Shure Beta 98 mic in action:
Image
1926 BBb King Giant Sousaphone
1950's BBb "Metro - Lockie Music Exchange" stenciled "Spaghetti York" Sousaphone
1997 Carvin 5-String fretless bass
http://www.strappingowls.com
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Re: Amping Up

Post by aqualung »

Why fool around ?

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Re: Amping Up

Post by Chriss2760 »

I am very happy with my Peavey Black Widow TKO-15 amp. I use a Sennheiser 602e bass microphone mounted to my bell with a bracket I made out of aluminum stock. Great combination.
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Re: Amping Up

Post by Yorkie C »

I've been using a vintage 1973 Ampeg SVT with two 8x10 cabinets. People freak out when they hear how present, pumping and powerful it is. Most don't believe what they are listening to is a tuba even thought it is in plain sight.
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