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What are the differences in the 24J and 25J????

24J = recording front-facing bell

25J = upright bell

I believe they have the same body.

arpthark wrote:24J = recording front-facing bell

25J = upright bell

I believe they have the same body.

Same body.

Also, the 3v:
20J = recording front-facing bell

21J = upright bell

If that's true then how does Conn label top loaded vs front loaded valves on those horns?

The way I read the Conn Bass Models chart, it's the 26J - 4 front valves, bell front. There are a lot of other front valve models, but that's the one that was made for a while with the same #11 bore (though discontinued long before they gave up on the 20J family.)

KiltieTuba wrote:27J - four front action, upright bell

That seems to be missing from the Conn Loyalist chart above. Like 26J, it appears with a different tuba line in the '20s, but the later 1930s 27J model isn't listed, only the 26J. Maybe someone with tangible evidence should send him a note.

KiltieTuba wrote:

Donn wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:27J - four front action, upright bell

That seems to be missing from the Conn Loyalist chart above. Like 26J, it appears with a different tuba line in the '20s, but the later 1930s 27J model isn't listed, only the 26J. Maybe someone with tangible evidence should send him a note.

Upon further reviewing most of the catalogs on the Saxophone Museum page, it would appear that Conn never made a four valve, front action, upright bell with short action valves.

What I find particularly interesting, is that after WWII, they continued to make the 20J but offered an upright bell as extra.... then made a model with an upright bell.

http://www.saxophone.org/uploads/museum ... 6_1907.jpg

Good find!

I thought I remembered seeing a thread about a 27J (front, short-action valves and an upright bell) that Lee Stofer did some work on. Unless the upright bell was custom made or from another horn, this would be evidence that Conn did make at least one 27J.

Well remembered: Conn 27J, in which we are also granted a peep at someone's 22J, the 3V version.

I don't know if Conn actively promoted the 23J, but this is what it would look like.

Your camera even provides the "as seen through the mists of time" effect.

Donn wrote:Your camera even provides the "as seen through the mists of time" effect.

You can't buy anything for $20 these days.

I just wanted to add one comment about the big Conn short-action tubas.

I really tire of hearing people bash them for having a flat F at the bottom of the staff. Eric and I are now doing a play-condition rebuild of three Conn 20J's, where we had to pull the bottom bows and do other surgery. On EVERY Conn that has had all of the leaks repaired, so that the instrument is leak-free, dent-free, has no loose braces and has PROPERLY ALIGNED valves, the instruments have fabulous intonation and response. We finished the first of these big horns Tuesday afternoon, so I took it to rehearsal Tuesday night. The aforementioned F was laser-accurate, the 1st valve C was good, and the 2-3 high Gb was unbelievably accurate. Eric commented that the horn sounded just as good as my Martin.

If you have a Conn with intonation/response problems, it just needs repairing.

Lee Stofer wrote:and has PROPERLY ALIGNED valves

Dan has mentioned that the obscure Holton short action valves are very sensitive to alignment, and just looking at pictures of the Conn pistons, I bet they're even more so.

Sounds like a good candidate for a PVAK, or similar system not prone to wear.

Lee Stofer wrote:

On EVERY Conn that has had all of the leaks repaired, so that the instrument is leak-free, dent-free, has no loose braces and has PROPERLY ALIGNED valves, the instruments have fabulous intonation and response.

Lee, I have a 20J and I'm curious as to what you usually need to do to get them playing right. Surely not every little peck needs to come out. How do you tell if the joints leak short of disassembling them all?

This is one of the problems in brass instrument making, getting the solder joints properly soldered. The first of these three Conn 20J's, when the bottom bow was removed, revealed that only about 15% of the internal joint area was soldered, which means that the joint had a serious leak. But, even where there is just enough of a thin ring of solder to make it seal vs having the joint fully soldered, there is a measurable difference in transmission of vibration from one piece to the next, or projection.

Short of disassembling the instrument, the best I can do is to do a water leak test, filling the instrument with water in the cleaning sink while it is standing upright, noting and marking any leak areas, and soldering them as well as possible. The best way to re-do solder joints is to disassemble, thoroughly clean, check for good fit and work the joint if necessary to ensure a close fit, tin the parts and solder it together.

One can get away with having a few small dents in their instrument, but I find that the fewer dents, the better it plays. A dent in the smaller tubing makes more of a difference than the same-sized dent in a larger tuba, hence mouthpipe dents are the most critical. Since the Conn short-action tubas / sousas have an oval port going into 1st valve, the mouthpipe must be removed to de-dent, but it is well worth the effort.

Also, many people do not seem to realize that the Conn 20-series tubas were designed to be played with a single Conn tuning bit. One can try to compensate by pulling the plenty-long main tuning slide, but they do not line-up intonation-wise without the bit, unless someone has re-fitted the instrument with a longer mouthpipe (and did it right). The Conn mouthpipes are not always of the correct size at the ferrule where they attach to the 1st valve port, so I sometimes have to clean out the excess solder and filth, work the mouthpipe on a mandrel to arrive at the correct taper and an excellent fit in the ferrule, and then solder it together. Having a uniform taper from the mouthpipe into the 1st valve port, as opposed to having a drop-off, solder globs and filth, makes a huge difference in how an instrument plays. Done correctly, a Conn 20-series tuba is as good as any other 6/4 BBb tuba out there. But, even a single broken, loose or missing brace can mess up how it plays. The short, fat pistons rarely get worn enough to need re-plating. I have seen only one 20J that actually needed a valve re-plating job.

Over 10 years ago, when asked about the possibility of Conn-Selmer making the 20-series tubas again, I understand that the Conn-Selmer representative told them that, to make it feasible to do so, they would have to do a production run of at least 300 20J's and would have to charge at least $13,000.00 apiece, to make them like they used to be made. If you have one of these instruments and it is in good condition, it is not a cheap instrument.

Great sell on the leadpipe and solder joint services, Lee. I'm going to have to try the water test, hope the tub can handle the weight when I filler' up. Maybe I can look up the leadpipe for gunk with a dentist mirror in the 1st valve casing.

What do you use to take the bottom caps off - there's nothing grippy on them, and the slot is wide, long, shallow, and recessed. It's like it requires a special purpose BMW-style tool.

Lee Stofer wrote:....I really tire of hearing people bash them for having a flat F at the bottom of the staff....On EVERY Conn that has had all of the leaks repaired, so that the instrument is leak-free, dent-free, has no loose braces and has PROPERLY ALIGNED valves, the instruments have fabulous intonation and response...

Speaking of properly aligned valves on the Conn short action horns, is the small line in the valve stem supposed to line up evenly with the top of the cap? Does that mean it's perfectly aligned? Or does it matter if there is a tiny bit exposed above the cap. I did a test play both ways and couldn't tell a difference.

I know with the short actions if they're way off alignment it will sound stuffy and hard to play since the ports don't like up. Back in school there was a kid playing on a 22K with basically long action valves since all the corks were missing. I put some extra felts in there for him to get the short action and he couldn't believe how much better it played! Shame that some band directors these days could let that happen.

From my experience with Conn short action valves, the marks on the valve stems may or may not be reliable to properly align the valves.

lost wrote:

Dan Tuba wrote:From my experience with Conn short action valves, the marks on the valve stems may or may not be reliable to properly align the valves.

This.

Makes it even more confusing!