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Dear colleagues,

Lately I my intonation tends to be high in all registers. Although I struggled with this issue in the past (when I started playing a C tuba about ten years ago) I would say usually my intonation is ok.
I'm not at my best tuba playing shape, as I've been putting a lot of efforts into other sides of my musical life - writing, singing, playing trombone and baritone - but I still play shows at least once a week, rehearse and record, usually on sousaphone.
I made sure this isn't a problem with my horn, I have the exact same problem when I play a C tuba and a Bb sousaphone. I made myself an intonation chart and can see that when I play a Bb instrument, low Bb, B and C are particularley sharp.
Of course, playing with the tuning slide very far out causes it's own tuning issues. I hope getting my chops back into shape will solve this problem.

Have you encountered this kind of problem? Do you think high intonation can be a resault connected to weak chops?
Do you have any practical advice? Relevant exercises?

I would appreciate your opinion and advice.

Assuming you already know your hirn's tendencies, and are talking only about working on this via your chops: drones. Cello drones are readily available on iTunes, or even on youtube if you're feeling thrifty. Put on a tonic drone, then play scales slowly, focusing on intoning every scale degree perfectly. If your ear is trained, your embouchure muscles will begin to get the message and naturally correct the issue.

Assuming your horn is not the problem, I have found that playing the Vince Cichowicz long tone studies to be a great remedy for playing "high on the tuba". They are published for trumpet but work very well on the tuba and other brasses. Highly recommended.

Rather than say "find a good teacher and take a lesson," I'll give you something to try that may help you figure out the problem.

Pick a nice mid-register note. Play that note with as much chops and as little air as possible. Then go through the whole combination of chops/air until you reach the other end, where you are playing with as much air and as little chops as possible. Most people will find somewhere where the tone gets resonant that uses a lot less chops and a lot more air. Many players who are not yet secure will tend to "push" towards the top of the slot for a feeling of security, and depending on your instruments variations, some slots are going to play higher than others when "pushed."

After I got dystonia I had to learn to play with more air and less chops by quite a bit. Previously I always had my tuning slide out some. Now, unless it is literally over 100 degrees (outdoor concert) my tuning slide is always all the way in, and sometimes I'm actually flat and can't do much about it (same instrument, same mouthpiece.) Without being able to practice now, I have the same endurance I had when I was putting in significant practice time before I had to change the way I played.

Might be worth noting that both of you play higher pitched brass instruments along with the tuba, which hypothetically might cause a certain type of embouchure development past what's necessary with the tuba.

Playing tenor range brasses along with the contrabass range brasses is a likely part of the problem, if you don’t treat them differently in a conscious way.

Embouchure tension and air direction are some of the obvious parameters to consider.

So is body ressonance. You won’t get a contrabass instrument playing at its true pitch, if you think like a tenor vocalist. Imagine what a basso profundo would do with his breathing apparatus and work from there.

One area to work with, maybe especially on the sousaphone, but helpful for tuba also, is about playing false notes. I have made a set of exercises exploring the false notes quite systematically. They are available for free from my Yahoo-based download project:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Yor ... or%20tuba/

I will send you an invitation, if you send me an email address via the mail button to the right of here. Same goes for other TN-members. Please present yourselves as low brass players. And please make your addresses look like coming from a human. I just rejected an application from an address with 100+ digits and letters before the @.

Klaus

Back "way back when" when I was a kid in HS, I got my first Tuba, not a sousaphone. The bore on the tuba was .770 while the sousaphone I played was around .690 something. Until I got used to the larger bore I tended to play my notes on the tuba on the high side, trying to get the sound I was used to on the smaller sousaphone. I slowly learned to fill the instrument differently and aim for the mid or lower part of the tone.(which incidentally has a lower pitch as well) I also learned that I needed to get the punch in my sound from "wind support" not just "barking" into the mp. Torchinsky had me just play as loud as I could for several weeks. Finally the tightness and smallness of the chops gave out and I had the sound I wanted. Kind of a crude way of getting there, but Abe wasn't always very subtle. Taking the time to learn how to deliver a strong but open throated, large and wide stream of air is a concept that takes some time to learn. Abe's techinique was certainly not the thinking man's way of achieving things, but when you finally got it, it stuck, and you never had to really think about it. Just another "auto pilot" skill.

I also have different tuning slides for different temperature situations, a short one (rarely used) for colder temps, the factory slide of medium length (used most often) and the long "summer" slide (used for those outdoor or abnormally hot indoor stage occasions, a few times per year).

I was also taught with the "play as loudly as you can" technique by my fantastic teacher, Mr. Pat Landolfi. He was not one to be subtle either (!!), but it darn well worked. Since both Mr. Torchinsky and Mr. Landolfi were students of Mr. Bell, I wonder if this was a technique that he used. I'd bet yes but others can give a more informed opinion.

tuben wrote:

bloke wrote:bloke "It's only MY fault - and no one's else - if I can't function in any particular musical setting."

I'm not trying to lay blame or fault. But in your post you enumerated nicely how we as tubists get the (literal) short straw when it comes to hot temperatures and A-440.

I had not realized how hard this might be for tuba. I'm mostly a trombone player; I did play a couple years of tuba, but that was in Wisconsin, and hot temperatures were not an issue. On trombone I just leave my tuning slide all the way in and put my hand slide where it needs to be.

But I do have memories of chasing the pitch in the good olden days, and my perception is that has changed. With cheap electronic tuners now ubiquitous, ensembles have tended to stabilize pretty close to 440, whereas a few decades back they might easily vary a half step or more up or down. As annoying as the electronic tuner addicts can be, on the whole these things have made it much easier to play in tune.

My theory anyway. YMMV.

bloke wrote:
...and no, I am NOT talking about YOUR community band.

Yes, you are.

Rick "pull out, dammit!" Denney

No one in OUR band plays above standard pitch!!

Thank you all for your kind advice and helpful thoughts on the issue.

tuben - I have to admit I didn't take into consideration the fact that these are very hot days in Israel... I'll soon test my intonation in a nicely air conditioned room and get back to you on the subject... bloke and Paul Scott, I didn't realize some people have a special, longer tuning slide made for playing in hot weather.

fenne1ca - thank you, I will try playing with drones. One of my teachers used to do this a lot with me as part of my warm up when I was younger.

bloke - I've always found your advice here interesting and relevant. Of course I am younger and less experienced than many of the forum members, but I don't think I am ayoung person or a young player. I'm 35, have been playing since I was nine, and am playing the tuba for 16 years now. I make my living playing tuba and making music.

- How far above A=440 are you playing on these instruments with their tuning slides pulled (ok, arbitrarily...) halfway out ?

On both my B&S CC tuba and my King BBb sousa I'm around 35-40 cents sharp with tuning slide about half way out.

- *How do you generally sound? good/open/round...?? pinched/thin/harsh..?? don't know...??

I'd say I have an open and round sound. There's always room for improvement.

- How do you generally feel after you've played? good...?? tired...?? don't know...??

When it's not a a very demanding show, where I have to play loud all the time (second line, for instance), I feel good after playing. On very demanding gigs I also feel good, but tired, like all the brass players around me.

- When some really great player(s) - who sound really great - play your instrument(s), where do THEY put your instrument's (or instruments') main slide(s) to play at A=440 ?

I'll make an oppurtunity to check that out.

Paul Scott - Thanks, I'll try the Vince Cichowicz long tone studies. Always happy to refresh my warmup routine.

MaryAnn -

Pick a nice mid-register note. Play that note with as much chops and as little air as possible. Then go through the whole combination of chops/air until you reach the other end, where you are playing with as much air and as little chops as possible. Most people will find somewhere where the tone gets resonant that uses a lot less chops and a lot more air.

I've never conciously experimented so thoroughly with chops/air ratio. That's very interesting, I'll try it.
Your coping with dystonia sounds like a huge challange. I admire the fact you relearned your playing and returned to the tuba.

Donn -

Might be worth noting that both of you play higher pitched brass instruments along with the tuba, which hypothetically might cause a certain type of embouchure development past what's necessary with the tuba.

I thought about this option too.

imperialbari -

One area to work with, maybe especially on the sousaphone, but helpful for tuba also, is about playing false notes. I have made a set of exercises exploring the false notes quite systematically. They are available for free from my Yahoo-based download project

Thank you for the invitation, I downloaded your excercises and will try it soon, and looked at some of the other interesting sheet music you have there. You've created an impressive library!
I did feel my false tones are less precise and clear, and started playing low etudes to strengthen my lower register, but it's nice to see a study written specifically for false tones.

Where problems present themselves, I get a reference pitch (keyboard instrument is wonderful) and the mouthpiece, and make sure that I can match the pitch on the keyboard over the range of pitches I expect to play. Easy routines should be done until they are comfortable.

This will recalibrate the ear that has gone astray, and instill some muscle memory in the lips at the same time.

Persons without a reference will go sharp mostly, and prefer to hear a sound on the high side. Over a long period of time this can make one's ear and lips a real disaster.

I agree that's important. I start almost every warm up playing a scale and some arpegios on my mouthpiece, frequently checking my self with the piano.

bloke wrote:

Udi wrote:...

(with due apologies) I don't know you, and your appearance in your avatar (at least without reading glasses) is that of a very youthful person.

- j

No offence taken. I appreciate your good advice.

So, today I tested my sousaphones intonation in a room cooled to around 25 degrees ºC (77 ºF) and sadly it alsmost didn't make a difference inmy sharpness. Pity, as it is so much easier blaming your problems on something else then yourself.

MaryAnn, I tehat you suggested

Pick a nice mid-register note. Play that note with as much chops and as little air as possible. Then go through the whole combination of chops/air until you reach the other end, where you are playing with as much air and as little chops as possible. Most people will find somewhere where the tone gets resonant that uses a lot less chops and a lot more air.

And found it quite effective with a big part of my register. More air and less chops got me a lot flatter, and felt better to play. No magic solution, but this seems as the right path to take. As always, the first thing that gets hurt when I get out of shape is moving less air and putting too much pressure on the lips.

imperialbari, your false / pedal notes excercises are very thorough and effective. Thank you for sharing them.