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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby Dan Schultz » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:06 pm

arpthark wrote:How would stress on the braces affect the sound or intonation, though? Is it just a resonance thing? Node/antinodes?

By voodoo I meant more of, "We don't know why, but it works." I didn't mean it to be a bad thing. It would make sense that not having any stress on the braces should be a good thing, I agree. But why?


Doesn't matter. How a horn feels to the player can make a big difference how he/she makes it sound.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:56 pm

bort wrote:
bloke wrote:Wouldn't this contribute to climate change...??

What about those smelt that I smelt?


Joe, I'm worried about you. Is that heap of school horns making you a little loco?

Image Bring that Willson down here.
Free-of-charges, I'll relieves your stresses...
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby MikeMason » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:17 pm

Ok Joe, why do you doubt? Tried and didn't work in the past? Or other reasons?
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:02 pm

MikeMason wrote:Ok Joe, why do you doubt? Tried and didn't work in the past? Or other reasons?


Let's try it on your tuba first.
I don't remember if you've bought something new recently, but bring whatever you have that's the most expensive...

=======================================

OK...wisecracks aside...

After all the time I've spent futzing around and dialing in slide alignment on various instruments I own (as well as putting custom finishes on a couple of them), I can just see randomly heating up braces on them to see if they might possibly "sound better".

bloke "sorry, but..."

https://www.google.com/search?q=shock+treatments+and+lobotomies&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=shock+therapy
Last edited by bloke on Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby MikeMason » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:09 pm

Actually,to a lesser degree, that might be in the works. Martin Wilk is taking a dent out of it at the bell to bow brace which may be causing tension. It'll be hard to tell with the new valves which mod is causing what effect.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:19 pm

MikeMason wrote:Actually,to a lesser degree, that might be in the works. Martin Wilk is taking a dent out of it at the bell to bow brace which may be causing tension. It'll be hard to tell with the new valves which mod is causing what effect.


yeah...well mushed-into-the-body-bells often squish the mouthpipe and jam it into the #1 valve casing...but that's a mechanical problem...unless the mouthpipe is SO ovaled that it's also a resistance problem.

As a rule, I tend to avoid mushing the bells of my tubas into the bodies of my tubas...but - if I wanted to relieve tension - I suppose I could do it to one or two of them and (just like all of these beat-to-crap yet-to-be-repaired school tubas out in the barn) pull them back out again. :wink:

======================================

OK...again...horse$h!t aside...
Typically, when I have to take apart areas of tubas (unless they've been whacked...OK...which is often the case...but when they have NOT been whacked...) they just come apart, and there is no "spppprrroing!" This is generally the case from Jinbao to B&S.

...Just for $h!tz 'n' giggles, I just picked up something that looks a lot like this...yeah, and it's new (so far: no marks...and no "lacquer-stripped-I-only-care-about-the-sound" bell (at least, not yet). It plays really well...a little bit different from my won't-ever-sell-it F tuba (different bore sizes, different bell taper, different mouthpipe, different material, different metal thickness...), but - yeah - "good"...and "efficiently" (read: LOUD). I'm not sure that I want to burn a bunch of lacquer or tick a bunch of slides out of alignment to "find out" if it might play "better".

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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:54 pm

...and here's one more thing (sorry, but...you know me...MR. POSTS...)

Over the years, I've become (if I do say so myself) quite an expert at repairing trombone slides.
I don't advertise it, because (if you're read other posts of mine) I find un-boxing and re-boxing mail order repairs (and the phone calls that go along with mail order repairs) to be annoying.

There is no such thing as soldering something together absolutely "stress-free". I screw around with trombone slides down to .001" (whereas most new slides that I see are down to .010") When heating the cross braces to solder them, the material "grows" SEVERAL thousandths of an inch. (The trick that I've been mastering the last few decades is to predict just HOW much, so that - when it relaxes - it's on the nose.) OK...When I solder a cross brace together, lets say I'm getting 3.507"...and - when it cools - it relaxes to (hopefully) 3.500" (to match the measurement at the crook end which - btw - changes slightly due to geometry and (guess what?) STRESSES.
...but - when that cross brace relaxes it's UNDER STRESS because the solder hardened before the cross brace completely relaxed, and then the cross brace relaxed and (check out this word) FORCED the (albeit somewhat pliable) solder to move with it. :|

so..due to UNAVOIDABLE STRESSES there can really be no "perfect" trombone playing slide...only "about as close to perfect as someone can manage" - which btw - is often remarkably good...and (unlike tuning slides) trombone playing slides are RIDICULOUSLY sloppy and leaky (SEVERAL thousandths of an inch tolerance between inner and outer playing slide tubes) which is probably why trombone players don't notice the leakiness of those ridiculously-leaky cone-shaped F-attachment valves.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby tubazach07 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:13 am

bloke wrote:
MikeMason wrote:Actually,to a lesser degree, that might be in the works. Martin Wilk is taking a dent out of it at the bell to bow brace which may be causing tension. It'll be hard to tell with the new valves which mod is causing what effect.


yeah...well mushed-into-the-body-bells often squish the mouthpipe and jam it into the #1 valve casing...but that's a mechanical problem...unless the mouthpipe is SO ovaled that it's also a resistance problem.

As a rule, I tend to avoid mushing the bells of my tubas into the bodies of my tubas...but - if I wanted to relieve tension - I suppose I could do it to one or two of them and (just like all of these beat-to-crap yet-to-be-repaired school tubas out in the barn) pull them back out again. :wink:

======================================

OK...again...horse$h!t aside...
Typically, when I have to take apart areas of tubas (unless they've been whacked...OK...which is often the case...but when they have NOT been whacked...) they just come apart, and there is no "spppprrroing!" This is generally the case from Jinbao to B&S.

...Just for $h!tz 'n' giggles, I just picked up something that looks a lot like this...yeah, and it's new (so far: no marks...and no "lacquer-stripped-I-only-care-about-the-sound" bell (at least, not yet). It plays really well...a little bit different from my won't-ever-sell-it F tuba (different bore sizes, different bell taper, different mouthpipe, different material, different metal thickness...), but - yeah - "good"...and "efficiently" (read: LOUD). I'm not sure that I want to burn a bunch of lacquer or tick a bunch of slides out of alignment to "find out" if it might play "better".

Image


Bloke,
I respect your opinion, the repair work that you do, and especially your mouthpieces that you design.( I really love the symphony bloke piece).
What I want you and the other members of this forum to know that this was not some random heating braces that you would compare to shock treatment. It was very calculated starting with the main tunning slide which had 3 braces very close to each other all of which shifted a good amount. After the main tunning slide we looked at the braces connecting the 5th valve slide since pedal F and Eb using 5th valve had always been harder to play than they should be. We found that there was significant stress in the braces and after heating them I noticed a ease in playability. After the 5th we decided to check the lead pipe and found that it moved a good amount as well. Since the braces we checked shifted soo much I asked him to check the others. We knew where to start because of the last 1292 that was brought in before and due to his 30 plus years of building and repairing tubas. If you are interested in knowing more I will gladly email you the repairman's email and you can ask all the questions you like. You two have met before and I am sure you have probably already figured out who it is just based on my location.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:17 am

Were the braces then re-re-heated to see if they popped again?

You could interpret the remark just above as a "smart-@$$" comment, but - ok...trumpet valve-casing-to-mouthpipe braces...

Sometimes, they want to be ONE place when they are cool, and yet ANOTHER place when they are hot.
Obviously, they are soldered in place hot, so what happens then...??
(and yeah...this is another thing I tend to futz around with, because I'm just as picky about "trumpet main slide alignment" as I am about "trombone playing slide alignment")
truth: Often, when I put an aftermarket mouthpipe on someone's trumpet (using the same pairs of inside/outside main slide tubes) the tuning slide is then too "loose"...guess why...
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby tubazach07 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:21 am

Yes for example when he worked on the leadpipe he went back and forth between the brace at the receiver and where the leadpipe entered the first valve. If he worked on one brace that was on the same tube as anothwr brace he would go heat one up let it settle then go back to the other heat it up and than repeat.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby tubazach07 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:26 am

I wish I could tell you more specifically what is going on but unfortunately I sat there and watched him work and then gave feedback. I will send you his info and let you contact him. By the way do you ship your mouthpieces to Japan? I had a freind in the Japanese airforce band ask me about the bloke piece symphony. He thought I was playing a parker hitz mouthpiece.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:28 am

I've done the type of stuff you describe, but not "here and there".

I've pulled out-of-alignment valvesets completely off of tubas (yeah, for some people here on boobnet and nearly taken them completely apart, necessarily futzed around with crook widths, and reinstalled them on the tubas as (well...pretty much) "precision-aligned". It took MANY hours, though...and sure, with the least amount of stress...I made them FIT...
...but (typically) those were hastily-built crapophones (such as ...well...) Holton 345 tubas...and York "franken"-tubas, etc...
Most tubas don't "pop" when I take them apart...(again) unless they've been dropped.

Now that dime-store magnifiers (low power, thankfully) seem to be more the necessary norm these days, I can still do all of that just as well, but it's more annoying.

Yes, I'm a smart-@$$ and a skeptic, but (you know) that's me.

Mouthpieces have gone to every continent except Antarctica...I'd LOVE to mail one to Antarctica !!!
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby tubazach07 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:38 am

No worries Bloke no hard feelings. I was very surprised as well when we heated up the braces. I will have to send you the video of some of the braces popping over personal email.

In regards to Antarctica I wonder if you could mail some fliers about the mouthpieces there. I am sure there has to be at least one mail box there. Right?....
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:45 am

tubazach07 wrote:No worries Bloke no hard feelings. I was very surprised as well when we heated up the braces. I will have to send you the video of some of the braces popping over personal email.

In regards to Antarctica I wonder if you could mail some fliers about the mouthpieces there. I am sure there has to be at least one mail box there. Right?....


I know only of this one (Port Lockroy - Goudier Island)...yes, I researched it a little bit...

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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby tubazach07 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:58 am

bloke wrote:
tubazach07 wrote:No worries Bloke no hard feelings. I was very surprised as well when we heated up the braces. I will have to send you the video of some of the braces popping over personal email.

In regards to Antarctica I wonder if you could mail some fliers about the mouthpieces there. I am sure there has to be at least one mail box there. Right?....


I know only of this one (Port Lockroy - Goudier Island)...yes, I researched it a little bit...

Image
Image


Hahahaha!! That's awesome! I am sure there is got to be at least one tuba player there. You could be the first tuba mouthpiece maker to send your mouthpiece to Antarctica. That has to be worthy of being in the Guinness book of Word Records...
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby bloke » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:48 am

fwiw...dead south of Nova Scotia... :shock:
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby Wyvern » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:30 am

What I do not understand if why parts would be assembled under stress. On modern tubas, the individual tubing is hydraulically shaped, so should be identical every time and with computer design precisely the right size and shape to fit in tuba. Then the tuba is assembled (at least in China) using jigs/templates to hold parts in correct position for soldering as illustrated. Braces are usually adjustable to lengthen/shorten to precisely fit. Therefore over stress should not be built in. Well that is the theory anyway.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby Matt Walters » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:38 am

Jonathan,
In regards to this statement and the picture you included of the bell, bottom bow, and top branch on a jig....
What I do not understand if why parts would be assembled under stress. On modern tubas, the individual tubing is hydraulically shaped, so should be identical every time and with computer design precisely the right size and shape to fit in tuba. Then the tuba is assembled (at least in China) using jigs/templates to hold parts in correct position for soldering as illustrated. Braces are usually adjustable to lengthen/shorten to precisely fit. Therefore over stress should not be built in. Well that is the theory anyway.


The guard caps and guard wires were bound together prior to those branches being soldered together. There was already tension in the horn prior to that picture taken.
Having worked on enough tubas from America, Germany, Russia, and China, I can assure you that no matter how wonderfully engineered the parts and tooling, the HUMAN FACTOR will always create diversity in the construction of musical instruments. I can double assure you that as the last few parts are being soldered onto the horn, there will always be some nudging of the part(s) to get it to fit and the horn to be done. I see it on every new tuba.

To the Original Poster: I'm certain Martin got braces to pop with heat and that improved the horn. Before you go and blame the manufacturer for "excess tension", please keep in that if the tuba were flawlessly tension free at time of construction, it would get stressed just in the very first shipment, let alone in years of playing. As Bloke pointed out, just the cooling of the solder joint creates a "drawing in" effect that automatically creates some tension in every solder joint. So as the joints that Martin just re-soldered cooled down, they put some tension back in the joint but hopefully not as much as was there. No solder joint should "pop" when heated.

Yes, braces can nudge intonation by not letting a certain spot that may be a node or anti-node of the horn vibrate as freely. That relieving the tension on just a few braces turned a horn(s) from always bad to now awesome is not likely without some placebo effect. If you sensed some antagonism from some of the replies, that is what they are getting after. That you experienced a 100% improvement is possible. Could some of that be placebo? Very possible because you didn't change the taper of the sound column (branch) the sound traveled in.

It worked for you and if it keeps working for you, that is a good thing. The HUMAN FACTOR trumps engineering every time.
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby Ken Herrick » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:53 am

Thank you, Matt!!!!!!!
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Re: releasing stressed braces and the advantageous outcomes

Postby Wyvern » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:09 am

Thanks for the expert feedback - Matt!

I am learning more all the time about horn building.
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