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I’m considering adding a 6th valve to my B&S Modell Symphonie. I really get tired of pedaling the 5th valve slide (which is necessary for my intonation). Often enough I’ll have quick passages where I’m moving the slide in and and back again, which doesn’t help the the accuracy of my playing. I’m hoping the installation of a 6th valve will remove this problem.

It’s a GDR model with the step-up boring (17mm-21mm).
Should it be enough to order a 6th valve, tubing for before and after the valve, and a new mouthpipe from B&S?

Or is this a really bad idea?

Hi-
First, convert the 5th valve from left hand to right thumb, and use left hand for 5th valve slide kicker...I would try that first....just my thoughts....
Mark

PS. Has your fifth slide been lengthened to a flat whole step?

I'll let bloke be the authority here, but I would personally be very hesitant to change the first 12-24 inches of a vintage classic that plays and sounds great.

It looks like the geometry of your slide kicker works against you. Unbalanced stress. How about a right-thumb lever conversion and a main slide kicker (dead center)?

If you're serious about finding a 6 valve Symphonie, they are out there, and do pop up for sale from time to time. I wouldn't mess with this tuba, short of changing 5th valve from left to right hand. It doesn't take much in terms of modification to make a great instrument play poorly.

You can buy all the parts, but it will be expensive. I agree with Andy--what it costs will exceed the net of what you would spend finding and buying a six-valve model and then selling this five-valve model. That is exactly what I did.

I also agree with Bison that the fifth valve on your Symphonie is too short. I don't know what it was designed for, but my brain (reinforced by my other F tuba) thinks in terms of a flat whole step fifth, and this one is more like a non-flat whole step. I could achieve that just as the slide falls out.

Soldering on new outer tubes for the fifth will be a lot cheaper than the parts needed to add a sixth valve, and even if you are still not satisfied and replace it with a six-valve model, it will only improve the value for the next owner.

Rick "who has worked through these same issues" Denney

Truly this particular tuba plays beautifully (it used to be Gary Buttery's. I remember reading a post from Norm Pearson that he first got hooked on these tuba's when he heard Gary playing this very horn). Bobo was my teacher at the time of purchase and had me lengthen the 5th to high 2 step. Minnick did the work.
In all the 5 valved F tubas I have every played it was always necessary (for me at least) to move a slide in the low register. Like on this tuba, particularly the low G needs major attention.
I have never noticed any advantage or disadvantage to the 5th being tuned to either the flat whole step or the high 2 step.
I have another F tuba with the 5th in the right hand but no trigger. I find both these situations to be undesirable.
As far as I've noticed from other B&S F's I've tried, the 6th valve does not interfere with it playing well (some find it an advantage).
I do agree that a major operation is scary and maybe a bad idea with this tuba.
Thanks for all the input, gentlemen.

Just read some more feedback.
You are all probably correct; better to keep looking for something I like as well (hmmm?)
I'll think about the dependent 6th. Another solution (and maybe the best) is to look into modernizing the 5th trigger. I just recently tried a Melton 45 with a truly impressive trigger action.
Thanks y'all.
And ya the Bb is 523; high 2 step

Yes, I do see the modification now. Much as I admire Larry Minnick's work, I would have just added longer outer slides on the fifth valve, like B&S did on later models.

By the way, I missed it because the forum software won't downsize an image, and my monitor is only 1900 pixels wide. This image has to be two or three times that, and I can only see a little strip of the picture at any one time.

I consulted with Joe when I was pondering this issue, and he might be able to help you identify the parts you'd need. He really is an expert on these instruments, and one of their chief proponents. I would recommend using factory parts, but you may not need to change the leadpipe at all.

Rick "good luck" Denney

Thanks
every time a try to shrink it just ends up large on the upload.

Like I mentioned earlier, my 5th was lengthened by Minnick to high 2 step. I can play very well in tune on all the notes but low G really needs to be longer. 524 with the 5th slide out does it.
Thanks

Would a 2nd valve kicker help?

I can think of several Youtube videos (but can't link them right this minute) where 5-valve B&S F tuba players are using their slide triggers constantly.

One was a Mnozil video, and Willi is working a 5th valve slide like yours constantly. The other was some different group, and there was a RH-activated 1st valve kicker.

I'm not sure either is particularly ideal, but clearly these horns are pretty special and worth the workarounds.

Hello pjv,

Just to add to the many good comments here:

Two collegues of mine had their Symphonies converted from 5 to 6 valves. It can be done well however as with any complicated project, the devil is in the details.

1. Please do not use modern B&S parts. The modern valves, tubes and leadpipes are considerably thicker and heavier, and while they will fit, in my opinion are not really compatible. One of the aforementioned collegues learned this the hard expensive way. One of our local valve makers produces exact reproductions of the old lightweight GDR style valves (and the paddle assembly as well) and I have found them to be excellent. Both collegues tubas improved their intonation with the extra valve, but this may be due to the extra care taken during the reassembly process.

2. If you decide to keep the tuba as a 5 valver, I would recommend the following modifications: Remove the 5th trigger. Convert the 5th valve to a flat whole step as with a modern B&S. Switch the 5th valve paddle from the left to right hand. If you are going to pull a slide, use the 4th because of its larger bore (21mm), it will require much less pulling for the same effect. A common trick in Germany is to pull the 4th out so that the peddle G/F# is in tune and to use 13 or 512/53 for the low C/G, but to each his own;)

Good luck!

TheBerlinerTuba

Haha
Thanks for the picture reduction. I always seem to get lost in the TubeNet functions. Is this me or because I have a Mac?

The tuning advantages of a 6 banger are known to me, which is why I've been considering this move in the first place. The votes against cutting into an instrument that plays as well as mine confirm my fears, so I'm leaning towards leaving it as is and looking further at what's out on the market.

The action arms are obviously older Miraphone linkage. I reversed 1-3 to resemble 4. Thanks.

By the way, on the subject of valve linkages for these, some years ago I made a web page describing how I replaced the linkages on my 5-valve Symphonie. I prefer these to the Miraphone white-plastic ball ends. I love the turned Miraphone shaft, but that white plastic did (and had done) bad things on my Miraphone before I replace them. What I did is a lot more adjustable, too.

http://www.rickdenney.com/valve_linkages.htm

I was not aware that B&S was now using physically larger valves. This was not the case when my six-valve version was made, which was later than the left-thumb five-valve model I had (and that I suspect yours was at first). That alone makes me retract my previous suggestion to use factory parts.

Rick "impressed by how strong Bloke's chops are to be able to get a good sound on a low D using 1-3" Denney

Rick, nice work. I wish I had this talent. Actually, I wish I had any other talent as long as it earned real money. (Not complaining, but at 53 being a free lance tuba player in the Netherlands is not necessarily the high live).

Bloke, I turned the linkage angle 180 degrees on 1-3 to match 4. Valves 1&2 rotate counter clockwise, 3&4 clockwise. Uh, correct?

BerlinerTuba, I'll send you a PM. I'd like to pick your brain about names and addresses.

And thank you all for the collective info.

Ok, then I understand you correctly the first time and have since done that (good time to grease things up while I'm at it).
I probably had turned the 3 arms around years ago just to get them tighter. They tend to rotate a bit during usage/playing (but not 180 degrees of course).
That's what happens when you give a screwdriver to an amateur....

Have you considered shortening the 5th valve to a flat half step, then adding a dependent flat whole step rotor in either the 4th valve tubing or 4th valve slide? I think this would keep it playing the same way it plays now, but with more flexibility of a 6 valve system. This also seems more easily undoable than your initial query.

The vast majority of the time, the flat whole step fifth is used in conjunction with the 4th anyway.

I would expect low G (ie below the bass clef staff) on your tuba as it is set up now to be 1+2+4+5 or 3+4+5. Are neither of those valve combinations in the ballpark?

bort wrote:Would a 2nd valve kicker help?

I can think of several Youtube videos (but can't link them right this minute) where 5-valve B&S F tuba players are using their slide triggers constantly.

One was a Mnozil video, and Willi is working a 5th valve slide like yours constantly. The other was some different group, and there was a RH-activated 1st valve kicker.

I'm not sure either is particularly ideal, but clearly these horns are pretty special and worth the workarounds.

Willi used to play a Rudolf Meinl F tuba with the 5th valve trigger. It looked sort of like a B&S, but was not.

Aah, got it. Thanks!

The dependent system has indeed also crossed my mind, though I always thought about a 5th with a dep. 6th, never a 6th with a dep. 5th.
My tuba play's very well in tune actually. Low G=534 slide OUT. I see no reason at this time to change the 5th tuning because it works as great, or as its gonna get for a 5 banger. Shortening it back to a flat whole step would be a waste of money unless there was a good reason for it.
If I did a 6th operation (dependent or independent) I would most probably cut it. Modernizing my tuning lever is another option. For my tuba probably better. For me, no.

Is your A below the staff in the ballpark when played with 2+3+4 or stinky flat?

I'm guessing from the picture that your 3rd valve slide was shortened previously.

I suggest trying to pull 3rd out as far as you can tolerate. Tune G# and C# a bit under, but lippable, like 10 cents.
After that, you may be able to play the G at the bottom of the staff 1+3 now, so pull out the 4th slide out a bit too (if you're splitting the difference between G and C), even if it makes the low C just a bit low.

See if doing both of those things makes the low G work.