Symphonie Fantastique Dies Irae down an octave (or two)?

[MartyNeilan]

Outside of one notable CSO recording, what other recordings or live performances have used the second tuba down 1 (or 2) octaves on the Dies Irae?

[Three Valves]

I'm sorry,

That part was obviously written for the bass,

NOT the tuba!!

[UDELBR]

This comes up every so often on TubeNet, and rather than bicker with dilettantes, I just resort to letting Berlioz speak for himself:

No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste.

Is this not the utter ruin and destruction of art? And ought not we, all
of us who are in love with the glory of art and vigilant to protect the
inalienable rights of the human spirit, ought we not, when we see them
attacked, to rise up in our wrath and pursue and indict the malefactor, and
cry aloud for all to hear, "Your crime is contemptible--despair! Your
stupidity is criminal--die! May you be scorned! May you be hissed and
hooted! May you be accursed! Despair and die!

[Three Valves]

No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste.

Yes, yes, yes, these parts were not written for modern instruments!! (Many at least)

The Shakespeare comparison fails, unless it gets translated into another language, and THAT would be pointless.

[EdFirth]

There was a live broadcast in about 82' of Mehta conducting the NY Phil, Tch. Romeo and Juliet, and Isreal The Miraculous Mandarin, then both combined for Fantastique.They played octaves Wow! I believe warren Deck was on the higher octave and the guy in Isreal, Yuri?, was on the bottom. Again, Wow! I have stumbled upon it on YouTube over the years. Well worth a listen. Ed

[pjv]

Also not an answer to your question
But
Even though almost all instruments have gotten larger and fatter since the time of Berlioz, the tuba has REALLY blown up.Originally, these parts were written for a Bb instrument (the ophicleide) and not a BBb, CC, Eb or F.

I'm wondering if playing these parts on euphoniums might not just give it the right blend this work needs. Nice big fat dark modern euphoniums.
Yes, he later scratched in tuba, but the first tubas sounded a lot smaller.

Just a thought.
In the wrong thread.
Sorry.

[pjv]

Ps, I know Meistro Bobo liked to play it like this when he played with the LA Phil. It is possible that it is recorded like this as well.

[tubeast]

Sorry, I don´t really get Mr. Berlioz´ point. I don´t know the full text this quote originates from, so I don´t even know whether it is to be taken seriously.
Is he saying that there is a "right" and "wrong" in art ?
Is he saying Ravel (surely first rank musician) had no justification to compose/arrange an orchestral Version of Mussorgski´s "Pictures..." ?

If performance of music is to be considered an art form, freedom of art should be granted to the performer.
Just as conductors like Harnoncourt have taken the freedom to strive for "Werkstreue", others may take the freedom to attempt the opposite. The quality of both could be judged according to the extent to which the proclaimed goal has been reached.

[cambrook]

MartyNeilan wrote:
Outside of one notable CSO recording, what other recordings or live performances have used the second tuba down 1 (or 2) octaves on the Dies Irae?

The elephant wrote:
Thankfully very few.

Times like this a "Like" button would be handy.

I've played SF more times than I can remember, and never once have the various conductors asked for (or allowed) the tuba to be dominant. This passage is most effective when the balance between the 4 bassoons and 2 tubas is such that the sound is haunting and almost "unearthly" - it gives a wonderful effect that is much more interesting than a down-the-octave tuba-fest.

[Three Valves]

No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste.

Yes, yes, yes, these parts were not written for modern instruments!! (Many at least)

The Shakespeare comparison fails, unless it gets translated into another language, and THAT would be pointless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JQ8yF04y9o

for firefox users:

Exactly.

If one wants to turn Romeo and Juliet into a 20th Century American Musical, just pen West Side Story!!

[doublebuzzing]

There was a live broadcast in about 82' of Mehta conducting the NY Phil, Tch. Romeo and Juliet, and Isreal The Miraculous Mandarin, then both combined for Fantastique.They played octaves Wow! I believe warren Deck was on the higher octave and the guy in Isreal, Yuri?, was on the bottom. Again, Wow! I have stumbled upon it on YouTube over the years. Well worth a listen. Ed

Do you know if this is still on youtube? I did a search but didn't see anything. I would be interested in hearing it.

[UDELBR]

I don´t know the full text this quote originates from, so I don´t even know whether it is to be taken seriously.

Were one so predisposed, one could have clicked on the link in the post which led to the text in its original context.

[tubeast]

In the mean time, I have done as Uncle Beer suggested, and found out that Berlioz actually WAS serious about this.

I cherish the accomplishments of Maurice Ravel, Canadian Brass, Oystein Baadsvik, and HR Big Band very much.

I think that
"Here´s MY rendition of (place piece of art here). What´s YOUR response ?"
is the foundation of and justification to the very existence of opera, theatre, concert halls, record companies, classical radio stations and, for that matter, art departments in colleges and universities.

That´s a totally different concept than "(Insert artist´s name) clearly didn´t know what they were talking about. Fortunately there is ME to offer a more suitable version" against which I understand Berlioz was opposing in his text.
This position of Berlioz´s I can fully agree with.

The funny thing is, though, that both approaches might lead to objectively same results: Great as well as horrible Performances of art.

[pjv]

The Dies Irae seems to be the focal point of a discussion on this board every couple of years or so. The balance (and timbre) of the tuba parts remains an issue for many tuba players.
It's really worth it to listen to this work played on 19th C instruments. It gives us another idea as to how this section (possibly) can work.
No, I'm not a "purist", but I suggested playing these parts on euphonium for a reason. When I heard this symphony played on French C tubas it suddenly made sense. The balance and achieved and the timbre was preferable to my ears.

[toobagrowl]

Outside of one notable CSO recording, what other recordings or live performances have used the second tuba down 1 (or 2) octaves on the Dies Irae?

NY Phil/Mehta on the Decca/London label recorded circa 1980. Deck & Pilafian (I think) on tubas, in split octaves on 'Dies Irae'. Great recording, check it out

Even if the tubas ~nearly~ "drown out" the bassoons, the (4) bassoons offer a considerable amount of "growl" to the sonority (yes, withOUT one of the tuba players playing in the wrong octave) - "growl" which ~is~ clearly heard.

TUBAS "growl"; bassoons "rasp". Get it right!!

[MartyNeilan]

I am surprised no one has played the 1st part on a JimBasso yet. (Or maybe there just isn't the documented proof of it)

[Uncle Buck]

This comes up every so often on TubeNet, and rather than bicker with dilettantes, I just resort to letting Berlioz speak for himself:

No, no, no, a million times no! You musicians, you poets, prose-writers,
actors, pianists, conductors, whether of third or second or even first
rank, you do not have the right to meddle with a Shakespeare or a
Beethoven, not even to bestow on them the blessings of your knowledge and
taste.

Is this not the utter ruin and destruction of art? And ought not we, all
of us who are in love with the glory of art and vigilant to protect the
inalienable rights of the human spirit, ought we not, when we see them
attacked, to rise up in our wrath and pursue and indict the malefactor, and
cry aloud for all to hear, "Your crime is contemptible--despair! Your
stupidity is criminal--die! May you be scorned! May you be hissed and
hooted! May you be accursed! Despair and die!

Berlioz was crazy, and he's dead now. His statement is as dumb today as it was when he wrote it.
(But I've got no opinion about the Dies Irae . . .)

[PaulMaybery]

Lots of fun posts on this one - opinions galore.

One topic within this subject has yet to be mentioned, that being the symbolic connotations that the various instruments have carried with them over the centuries. For instance, the english horn has pastoral connotations, the horn reflects the hunt, the clarinet the harlot and the trombones resonate an ecclestatical reference. The bassoons (not that oddly) are called "fagot" (bundle of sticks) and reference witchcraft in the sense of that the proverbial "boiling kettle" needs sticks to burn to keep the flame going. If you have read Gogol "Witches Sabbath" it is not do difficult to come up with this imagery. My point is that the whole section that we are referencing is about witches and therefore the bassoon is the basic symbolic instrument that Berlioz has chosen for that representation. The companion ophicliede, is much more similar to the bassoon both in shape and timbre than the modern tuba. Maybe I'm a spoil-sport when I make this remark, but I believe the modern tuba is a disconnect in this instance, in (1) it does not even come close to matching the timber of the basssoons, and (2) the tuba has its own separate connotations (developed a generation after Berlioz by Wagner and company - with references to giants and sleepling dragons. There are other instances where Berlioz and contemporaries have paired one dominant instrument with another. In the SF I can recall more that one place where he uses trumpets with the cornets. When we look at the score we can tell that he needs pitches that the natural trumpet can not produce, so the cornet comes in to "pinch hit." Does he want a totally distinct timbre of simply, or pragmatically just pitches?

So in comparing that view of things on the 4 bassoons and 2 ophicleides, what is he trying to convey by adding the ophecliedes to the mix? My take is added depth of sound rather than a huge timbre shift.

Granted, after the fact he did acknowlege the benefits of the bass tuba compared to the ophicleide, but this was well after SF was composed and orchestrated. Had he had a Prussian orchestra at his disposal and wrote SF in 1844, rather than the late 1820s, it would be interesting to speculate on on his orchestration of this passage.

Disclaimer: I'm a tuba player and a musicologist. I've played this piece many times in various scenarios. It's a great blow, and somehow I always like to let the bassoons know that I have an edge over them. Mea culpa.

On the last straw, its really about what the purpose is for the performance. Is it general repertoire on a subsription concert or a detail and labor instense performance with an expert Berlioz conductor striving for a definitive performance.

Back to the OP. I prefer the octaves where they are - okay maybe if a dude has a good high Bb - continue the run as it would have been on the oph.

[pjv]

Agreed.
So maybe instead of having these parts played on euphonium they should be played on the REAL successor of the ophicleide; the saxophone!

[TubaKen]

I think that
"Here´s MY rendition of (place piece of art here). What´s YOUR response ?"
is the foundation of and justification to the very existence of....

Berlioz was crazy, and he's dead now

I believe the real reason for Berioz' furor has been missed here. He isn't upset with certain interpretations of compositions. He's railing against the practice (fairly common in his time--extremely rare today) of eliminating entire sections or even movements of major works by Beethoven and the like. Or re-orchestrating to suit the whims of the conductor. (As he mentions in the cited passage--adding ophicleides and trombones to Mozart, etc.)
Would he even care about tubas in octaves, as opposed to unison. Well...probably. But this is 1000 times more subtle than the type of changes that have him all worked up.
BTW, I brought up the whole Dies Irae octave-or-unison question about fifteen or so years ago when we were getting ready to play SF, and most all responders, including Tony Clements and a few other pros said they ALWAYS played that passage in octaves. Go figure...