Conn Fiberglass Sousaphone choice

[Radar]

I currently own a Conn 36K fiber sousaphone that I now have all the issues worked out of, I'm also storing and have access to a Conn 22K that was just donated to our Fire Department Band by a former member who is now in a senior living center. Both of these are older instruments in similar cosmetic and working condition. I've spent some time now going back and forth between the two instruments and from a sound prospective I'm leaning towards the sound of the 36K even though from what I've read the 22K is supposed to be the professional model. From both a sound and the weight issue (the 36 is definately much lighter) I'm leaning towards staying with marching with the 36. Am I being deceived by being behind the bell? Is the sound of the 22 actually better than the 36 when you get out in front? What's the general consensus concerning these two models?

[iiipopes]

If you are going to go fiberglass, then yes, the 36K would be my choice for the overall balance of weight, tone, projection, intonation and ergonomics. I haven't been able to afford a good rebuilt one, so a tech friend of mine rebuilt the parts of a Selmer/Bundy, which is essentially a copy of a 36K, for me very inexpensively. But if the stars aligned and I could get a "real" 36K in great condition for a low price and be able to pass along the Selmer/Bundy for what I have in it, I'd very seriously consider it.

Don't be fooled: the new ones coming off the Cyborg assembly line are the same horn as the Kings, and are one and the same; the only difference being the decal on the bell and notation on the shipping invoice.

This opinion is the summation of my experiences playing most of the fiberglass souzys, ancient and modern, over the decades, including:

Old heavier King
Newer (resin) King
Jupiter
Olds (with the "Olds" bell brace)
Reynolds
Buescher (large bore)
Conn 36K
Conn 22K
Martin (yes, the school where my community band rehearses actually has one still used for marching)

And my Selmer/Bundy, which is old enough that it actually has a real fiberglass bell, not a resin bell.

[Donn]

Am I being deceived by being behind the bell?

It could sure happen.

Is the sound of the 22 actually better than the 36 when you get out in front?

You know one way to get an answer to that question, is to get someone else out in front to listen. I'm sure the guys here as right as they can be, under the circumstances, and the fact that they confirm your impressions is encouraging. But occasionally it does happen that two different tubas of the same model don't play or sound exactly the same, including the intonation quirks etc. And given that you have this clear/bass choice, you may be overestimating the adequacy of the bass on the 36K, or underestimating the clarity you get with the 22K. It's hard to tell for sure from back there.

[Kirley]

I agree with Bloke's interpretation of their sound quality differences.

My personal preference is the more P-Bass sound of the 22K. It gives the band that cushion to ride upon. I've rarely been told that I wasn't loud enough while playing that horn. Also, the few times I've heard decent recordings from "out front", I was pleasantly surprised with the amount of higher frequencies that were coming through. What we might call "tone" in this conversation. It was a lot more than I was hearing while playing.

Also, my 22K has a decently in tune F but the first valve C is terribly flat. 1 & 3 gets closer and lends more wiggle room to center the pitch. Not that I play a lot of held notes in the kind of playing I generally do. More evidence that each individual instrument will have its own quirks in addition to, or instead of, the generally accepted ones.

[iiipopes]

The best thing about Conn souzy valve blocks generally, whether "long" action (14K, predecessors and derivatives) or "short" action (20K and derivatives), as I have posted numerous times in the past, is that you can convert the upper loop of the first valve circuit into a moveable slide, shorten the outer legs @ 5/8 to 3/4 inch and trim the inner legs to fit flush when pushed, to take care of the flat 2nd space C with a push, and still have enough pull to get 1+3 in tune if you pull and set the third valve slide long so 2+3 is in tune or a few cents flat. Ergonomically, the upper loop of the 1st valve slide is where many folks rest the left hand naturally, so it is a good fit.

So for me, the discussion about second space C intonation is moot, as I have done this modification on every Conn I have ever owned or had on long-term (with permission of the owner(s)), and my current souzy, so I prefer the 36K because you can't do much about open F, except play it 1+3, and then you still have the intonation issues needing a pull on the 1st valve just like with below the staff C.

Finally, because there is more mass, the 22K does weigh more than the 36K. So if a person is going fiberglass for weight savings, why do the 22K, which on some of the more substantial ones there is not as much weight savings over conventional brass construction, which to me kind of defeats the purpose.