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Great post. I'm thinking that the mystery tuba player looks a lot like Marty Erickson. I found one of the one piece ones on Ebay. With the master tuner mostly intact. It's been restored and lives in Central Florida with a bunch of other Martins. If you shoot me a PM I'll send you contact info for the owner. People have told me over the years that there were Martins like yours at the Navy school of music and I've seen pictures of the DC Army band with top as well as front banger Martins. The tuba guy where I went to college was in that band. He preferred the top bangers. There were also four or five silver front bangers at the West Point band when I was there.Nobody played them. They were the only unfriendly Martin Mammoth tubas I ever played and, having recently at the time(1972) fallen under the Arnold Jacobs big silver front action tuba spell, I really wanted them to be good. The one that's here in town is a remarkably great horn. I think that if you get yours properly restored you will be the very happiest of campers.Good luck with it. All the Best, Ed

I can give you some first hand information to help in your search. At one time I owned 3 of those USN Martin tubas with fixed upright 20" bells, 4 top action pistons and main slide trigger system. They were sold through Military surplus where a school in West Virginia bought them for pennies on the dollar. After the required amount of holding time that let them re-sale them, I bought the 3 carcasses which included about 100 pound wooden trunks. From all the parts, I was able to fix up one completely with the trigger working. The second with no trigger and an aftermarket leadpipe set-up. The third was sent to Bob Rusk who made a dismal playing CC satin silver tuba out of it. All this went down about 30 years ago. I don't remember who I sold the BBb tubas to but I was living in West Virginia at the time. So those two were there. The CC I brought up to sell on consignment through Dillon Music on my first ever visit there. I seem to believe Pete Link bought it while over in Japan.

The valve section with no remaining slides for the 3rd horn I think I sold to Paul Scott about 10 years ago.

Here is an interesting story about that original 4 valve top action Martin valve section with no slides.
In the old pre internet days, the TUBA Journals had a classified add section. When I got down to that valve section with no slides at all, I remembered in a older TUBA Journal that someone was looking for a #2 valve for his Martin. I found the ad and I called him to asked if he still needed a valve. He said, "Wow, I put that ad in a couple years ago but I do indeed still have a Martin that is missing a valve." I offered him the entire valve set for $200 because what was I going to do with the valve set once it was missing a valve? He turned me down and implied I should just give him the 2nd valve only for $20. "Heck, I didn't spend but $50 for a whole tuba that is only missing one valve." Confused by his not jumping at the chance to get an entire tuba up and playing for only $200 more, I passed on his counter offer.

It turns out that after I came to work at Dillon Music, I ended up talking with a lot of his "relatives" that wanted me to spend a couple hours finding a 50-100 year old part they were missing and when I did, they only wanted to pay a couple of dollars for "old junk". After too many of those guys wasted our time, Mr. Dillon decided we were no longer in the parts business. Thank God for eBay where we can post old parts to clear out our basement and let the buyers do the searching.

Joe, if you're talking about Lenny Jung...

I got to play next to him in a community band back around 1998. He looked like an old man with a too large tuba, but he could probably kick anyone's asss physically or in tuba playing. I naively introduced myself, and was surprised when he told me about himself -- very cool for an 18 year old kid to play alongside of him. What a great tuba that old Martin was. So glad I saw it before it went to tuba hell (heaven?) in North Carolina.

I'm not sure if Lenny is still with us, but I'm glad I had a chance to meet him, such a nice guy.

The tuning rod itself is about 10 3/8 inch long. The actuating lever extends a linear 4.5 inches from the pivot point, though has a stylistic S bend (and horizontal widening that doesn't appear entirely necessary from a mechanical perspective). Like several of these I have seen, my lever is broken at the pivot point (where the levers were very thin).

Also YORL-aholic, sent you a PM.

Mike

bort wrote:Joe, if you're talking about Lenny Jung...

I got to play next to him in a community band back around 1998. He looked like an old man with a too large tuba, but he could probably kick anyone's asss physically or in tuba playing. I naively introduced myself, and was surprised when he told me about himself -- very cool for an 18 year old kid to play alongside of him. What a great tuba that old Martin was. So glad I saw it before it went to tuba hell (heaven?) in North Carolina.

I'm not sure if Lenny is still with us, but I'm glad I had a chance to meet him, such a nice guy.

As far as I know, Mr. Jung is still with us. A family member reported on Vince's blog in April of this year that he was still with us, at age 95.

After the Martin Handcraft, Mr. Jung needed something light and compact, and he obtained a Martin fiberglass tuba from the 60's, which is now in my collection. (Mr. Jung sold it through Baltimore Brass at an Army Confe--er--Workshop some years ago.) It has a rather small bore, three valves, a tuning stick for the main slide, and the usual Martin thumbscrew-locked tuning bits. Intonation justifies the tuning stick, but has a nice warm sound. I have long-term plans for that instrument. Right now, it's held together with automotive hose clamps. I seem to recall that Matt Walters set that instrument up for him, perhaps before he started working at Dillon, but it's a fuzzy memory.

Rick "who has never been forgiven by Art Hovey for buying that instrument after expressing concern about the intonation" Denney

95? Wow, that's great to hear. Thanks for the info!

I remember your fiberglass Martin, I remember seeing it there on the floor and scoffing at it for being "weird." Oops...

Right now, it's held together with automotive hose clamps. I seem to recall that Matt Walters set that instrument up for him, perhaps before he started working at Dillon, but it's a fuzzy memory.

Not me. Didn't see my first Fiberglass Martin tuba until sometime after I came to work at Dillon Music. I think that one said Reynolds on it but was very much a Martin.

While I was with the circus in 1977 we played Tuscon, Arizona and there was a big old four or five story building that housed the Chicago Music Store. The higher up you went inside the more odd, unusual, an forgotten about the merchandise became. On the fourth floor in the back of the room, partially buried under old drum stuff found one of those fiberglass Martin bell front tubas. Suprisingly intact and it played well. It's the only one I've ever seen in person and would've been a very useful tool but I had neither the money or the space in my trailer for it. Another one that got away. Ed

Interesting thread! A few tidbits/thoughts. The Marine Band also used Martin tubas for a time (and even carried some type of wooden playing stands for them). I have also seen a side-action Martin (detachable bell) fitted with the paddle on the main slide. The tuning paddle might have backfired in terms of the perception of some players. A Marine Band tubist of that era commented to me "those things were so out of tune you had to use a tuning lever while you played!". The fact that many younger players at that time were beginning to use more European styled rotary-valve instruments may have caused these instruments to fall out of favor. The tuning characteristics of the European horns were/are quite different than the Martins which might have furthered the notion that Martins were "out of tune" (something I disagree with). And the fact that they switched to Rudy Meinls afterward may be telling in that regard.

Isn't there also a story about several of these Navy Martins going down with a ship? I'm quite sure there is but I cannot recall the details.

The Marine Band absolutely had Martin tubas in the 1950s and into the early 1960s. I tried one of those - detachable bell and upright valves -- and thought it was outstanding. I also owned one front action but with only 3 valves, but the sound was great.

bloke wrote:Of all of the US-made 6/4 Bb tubas (and there weren't really that many, were there?), I (' just my opinion ) judge those Martin's as playing the best in-tune.

I'm only approaching sixty years of age (so my personal awareness does not go back into the 1950's, and have only ~barely~ been aware of "various types of tubas" for the past 45 years or so) but the only bands where I ever personally saw big Martin's being used (and at that time, I didn't even know they were Martin-made) were (indeed) USN bands (the D.C. band, specifically).

...and no, unfortunately I too did (years ago, armed with even more ignorance than I possess today) attempt to make one of those into a C tuba. That outing (as Matt describes with someone's else experience) completely cured me of "cut-down" projects (with the exception of Buescher, which - arguably - are "great C tubas hiding within fairly-good Bb tubas").

In the past, I recall an unnamed-here-and-former dealer boasting on his website about generously offering a retired Navy bandsmen one of his shiny-new ____________ tubas in exchange for that retired bandsman's super-nice 6/4 / 4-piston / front-action / fixed-upright-bell Martin. At that time, I didn't view that as very "nice", but (having seen - here on TubeNet - how many people getting up in years are looking for smaller tubas that also weigh less) I no longer view that transaction in that way.

I wonder where that cut down CC is now?

bloke wrote:I'm thinking that (at least, according to the album cover) Barney Mallon of the original Dukes of Dixieland (Assuntos family era) owned a 4-valve front-action fixed upright bell one of those, and recorded a stylized version of "Asleep in the Deep" using that tuba with them on the Audio Fidelity label - ending with a "double-low" F. Mr. Mallon was one of those old-school "bass/tuba" players, and I believe string bass (as with many players) was his "primary" of the two.



I communicated with him in the early days of e-mail. I remember that he lived in Rochester, NY, and I'm sure that he has passed away.

I've mentioned this before in other threads...

https://youtu.be/L2kVMswRBhc

I know it's a low-res picture, but I don't see the characteristic mouthpipe bits.

The wrap looks like a Holton, to me....

roweenie wrote: I know it's a low-res picture, but I don't see the characteristic mouthpipe bits.

The wrap looks like a Holton, to me....

I can almost see the bits, but angle would be important.

The outer branches may look a bit Holtonish, but the valve branches are nothing like a 345. I see a lower loop on the first-valve branch, which a 345 doesn't have, and the fourth valve is significantly different. If the valves are on a diagonal, I'd be getting a stronger Martin aura, but I can't really tell for sure in the picture.

Rick "trying to recall if Martin ever used the vertical valve lineup" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

roweenie wrote: I know it's a low-res picture, but I don't see the characteristic mouthpipe bits.

The wrap looks like a Holton, to me....

I can almost see the bits, but angle would be important.

The outer branches may look a bit Holtonish, but the valve branches are nothing like a 345. I see a lower loop on the first-valve branch, which a 345 doesn't have, and the fourth valve is significantly different. If the valves are on a diagonal, I'd be getting a stronger Martin aura, but I can't really tell for sure in the picture.

Rick "trying to recall if Martin ever used the vertical valve lineup" Denney

The 345 is not the only 6/4 model Holton ever made.

The mouthpipe curve, the unusually short 3rd branch, and that unusual curly-cue tubing for the 3rd valve circuit are characteristic of some older Holtons I've seen.







Also, the side-action Martins had their valvesets mounted high up in the bugle, where Holtons had them characteristically quite "low-slung".

I saw my first Martin at the Armed Forces School of Music in Norfolk, VA in 1979. It had a one-piece upright bell and 4 top pistons, with noisy valve guides, as I remember. But, my classmate who used this Navy horn had a blast playing it in concert band.

One of my clients has related to me that when he joined the US Army Band (Pershings's Own) in 1971, they had several Martins and Holtons, which they referred to as the "Thunder Tubs." The Band had apparently just recently bought some Meinl-Weston tubas, which he said were rather heavy for their size, feeling like they were made from sheet steel as opposed to the Martins and Holtons.

YORK-aholic wrote:Paul: Mine, even with a horribly crumpled bell, plays quite well in tune. I'm very happy with it.

The horns going down with the ship might have been this: Leonard Jung (sort of synonymous with the US Navy Band and these Martins) had a ship sink out from under him during WWII and his tuba went with it. This was before his appointment to the DC Band and these Martins.

I'm can't say if this is the source of the story you've heard, but it seems like it could be...

Lenny said the best horn he ever had - bar none - was on that ship when it sank, and now rests under about 4 miles of water.