Wonky intonation featuring Rudolf Meinl

[daflyingtubaman]

So, I am currently in the process of trial-period-ing a Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC, and I have to say that it is a phenomenal tuba. it has a beautiful, singing high range, and its low range is super clear and speaks easily at all dynamics; below low G it blows all the PT-6's I've ever played out of the water. Its intonation across the board is almost perfect. No crappy high G's or E's like I've heard numerous complaints about on other CC models. However, the F#, F, and E (not G) in the 3rd partial are horrendously sharp. I can correct the F# and E with my 2nd valve kicker, but the F is a huge problem. It's nearly a quarter-tone sharp. I can lip it down, but it comes dangerously close to becoming a Bb. It plays much better if I use 5 instead of 1 and lip it up a tiny bit, but I'm not very comfortable with that fingering. I really like this horn and don't want 1 note to be a deal-breaker. Does anyone have tips, or should I get used to using 5?

[k001k47]

1)Practice

2)Big CC tubas have their tradeoffs.

3)Pull your first slide

4)Ask your teacher

5)That F feeling sharp is fairly common on many CC tubas.

[patricklugo]

my advice is if you have a teacher?. ask him or her to test it out for yo; to see what is his or her opinion on the instrument. take your time , don t rush the process. read roger bobo advice on instrument selection in his blog.

you don t want 3 yrs down the line to find out that you make like another tuba. for most college playing situation a 4/4 might the best option for you. you have to play in large groups , chamber and solos. and big 6/4 might not be practical for the playing that you will be doing. also, you will probably need a bass tuba down the line.

so spend your money wisely and search for the instrument that works best for you.

[patricklugo]

http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articl ... ping.shtml" target="_blank

[daflyingtubaman]

my advice is if you have a teacher?. ask him or her to test it out for yo; to see what is his or her opinion on the instrument. take your time , don t rush the process. read roger bobo advice on instrument selection in his blog.

you don t want 3 yrs down the line to find out that you make like another tuba. for most college playing situation a 4/4 might the best option for you. you have to play in large groups , chamber and solos. and big 6/4 might not be practical for the playing that you will be doing. also, you will probably need a bass tuba down the line.

so spend your money wisely and search for the instrument that works best for you.

Yeah, I do have a teacher, so I'm going to try some different mouthpieces and let him play test it before I make any decisions.
As far as a bass tuba goes, I have been playing exclusively bass for the last three years (first Eb then F). It's definitely quite an adjustment going back to big horns, and I want to take my time and find the horn that works best for me.

[patricklugo]

good luck with the process. i love rudy meinl tubas. i own a Rudy 3/4 CC. now looking back i should have given more time in my search. the 188 is good horn too and a 4/4 Rudy. but i love the tuba that i have, no valve issues and very little intonation issue as well.

[Tom]

No real surprise on your intonation findings. That can be a problem area on many CC tubas.

I've owned a 5/4 Rudy Meinl CC (4 valve, no 2nd slide kicker). I know you've said otherwise, but I suspect your Rudy Meinl will actually tend this direction:

E and Eb just below the staff are probably at least a little sharp (maybe not "crappy" but probably still sharp)
C# and F# beneath that will be fairly sharp when played 2-4

But, since you have a 2nd valve slide trigger you should be able to fix those pitch problems and make those virtually a non-issue.

The issue you're having on the F is an easy fix as well: use the alternate fingering (5) or play it 1 pull the first valve slide. If that is really the only pitch problem on the horn, it sounds to me like you've found a good one and should retrain yourself to use 5 for your F's.

[bisontuba]

http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articl ... ping.shtml" target="_blank

Excellent list from Roger Bobo has but I would also include serial #... if you are trying a bunch of new horns of the same make & model, it is important to list serial #'s of each horn because by the time you play the first one to the last one, it can get confusing....

Mark

[oedipoes]

I used the 5th slide trigger for C# (2-4)

you mean 2nd slide trigger obviously, yes?

[oedipoes]

I used the 5th slide trigger for C# (2-4)

you mean 2nd slide trigger obviously, yes?

yep...sorry for careless posting.

My 4/4 Rudy BBb is currently having a 5th valve added + 2nd slide trigger.
This should address most of the intonation tendencies that I used to deal with by manipulating the 4th valve slide.

[bort]

Fact of life -- some tubas sound amazing, but are a pain in the asss to play. There are more than a few stories about big name players in the past who played tubas that we would all complain about and say were terribly out of tune instruments. But people use what they have and chase down the sound that they want, and are willing to make accommodations to make it happen.

Does the instrument need any servicing or repair? Leaks, dents, misaligned rotors, etc. can have all kinds of weird effects on things. I'm hoping it's "just that easy" and a quick fix. Maybe not, but you have to ask yourself if you're getting to know the instrument in its current state, or it's ideal state.

Rudy Meinl makes some of the best instruments out there. They are handmade, so there is a lot of variation in them. But I have a bit of a hard time believing that one of his instruments would roll off the line with a catastrophic intonation problem like that.

If it were me, and I was sure it wasn't something physically wrong (and correctable) with the horn, I'd probably pass on the instrument and find another Rudy 5/4 that played better for me. Using 5 instead of 1 for an F, ALL the time, is more than I'd want to deal with on a regular basis. Sorry, I'm just lazy. Maybe it's not a big deal for you!

[bort]

Oh weird -- I always thought those MW Bell model horns were very much plug-and-play tubas. I've only tried 3 or 4 of them, but they aren't bad at all IMO.

The one thing they have going against them though is that they are a pretty small bore, and not quite the "big" kind of instrument that is popular right now. Kind of like the MW version of a Miraphone 186. Nothing wrong with it, but just not the current preferred style.

Now the old King rotary CC's like Bill Bell had... that's a different story altogether. Those were a PITA, for sure, or so I've heard!

[daflyingtubaman]

After playing the horn in a couple groups, I've realized that the F is not as big of a problem as I thought. It doesn't slot very easily, but I've noticed that it isn't a problem in an ensemble and that I'm able to naturally, subconsciously tune myself. It's an adjustment to really start using my ear instead of just where the note slots, but if I keep my ears open, I am able to play it just fine.

[Lee Stofer]

To Daflyingtubaman,
You have mentioned that you have been exclusively playing bass tuba for the past two years. This alone would be enough to cause serious tuning issues, until you become accustomed to playing a contrabass tuba of any sort again, particularly when going from an F-tuba to one of the largest tubas on the planet.

I owned one of those tubas for over 15 years and played it daily, a lot. Due to the air requirements of that instrument, I needed to go running 3-5 times a week, besides practicing, to feel like I truly was mastering that instrument. My opinion is that there is scarcely another tuba in the world that will put out high quality volume like that horn will, but few that demand that much of the player. It is a great horn, no doubt, but just consider this before you buy it.

[daflyingtubaman]

To Daflyingtubaman,
You have mentioned that you have been exclusively playing bass tuba for the past two years. This alone would be enough to cause serious tuning issues, until you become accustomed to playing a contrabass tuba of any sort again, particularly when going from an F-tuba to one of the largest tubas on the planet.

I owned one of those tubas for over 15 years and played it daily, a lot. Due to the air requirements of that instrument, I needed to go running 3-5 times a week, besides practicing, to feel like I truly was mastering that instrument. My opinion is that there is scarcely another tuba in the world that will put out high quality volume like that horn will, but few that demand that much of the player. It is a great horn, no doubt, but just consider this before you buy it.

I switched to a helleberg style mouthpiece on this horn, and I've nticed huge improvements. Previously, I had thought "big horn, big mouthpiece," and the one I was using was just too big for what I needed. Since switching to the helleberg, I've noticed large improvements in intonation, tone, and response throughout the horn. It truly is a fine instrument, and my teacher, who used Don Harry's Rudy 5/4 in college, and I both agree that most other CC tubas just can't compete with it.

[k001k47]

No first-hand knowledge of WM Bell CC playing characteristics, all information I have is second- or third-hand. I do know there's some slide pulling on one video I have see of Mr. Pilafian's horn, but maybe that's not enough to qualify it as a PITA.

I played on the latest Bell model 37 for a few years. It required a few creative fingering and 1st+4th slide riding, but it wasn't a pain to play. I think the creative fingering were due to the fact that my horn had a poorly reassembled 4th slide, and the slide action was abysmal. The horn was more of a joy to play with a properly moving 4th. . .

If anyone has a mw 37 "division of getzen engraving" 4+1 left hand 5th with all valves vented, and about 70% raw brass, I'd like to offer to buy it. its apparently a pita to play in tune anyway. You won't miss it.

To Daflyingtubaman,
You have mentioned that you have been exclusively playing bass tuba for the past two years. This alone would be enough to cause serious tuning issues, until you become accustomed to playing a contrabass tuba of any sort again, particularly when going from an F-tuba to one of the largest tubas on the planet.

I owned one of those tubas for over 15 years and played it daily, a lot. Due to the air requirements of that instrument, I needed to go running 3-5 times a week, besides practicing, to feel like I truly was mastering that instrument. My opinion is that there is scarcely another tuba in the world that will put out high quality volume like that horn will, but few that demand that much of the player. It is a great horn, no doubt, but just consider this before you buy it.

I switched to a helleberg style mouthpiece on this horn, and I've nticed huge improvements. Previously, I had thought "big horn, big mouthpiece," and the one I was using was just too big for what I needed. Since switching to the helleberg, I've noticed large improvements in intonation, tone, and response throughout the horn. It truly is a fine instrument, and my teacher, who used Don Harry's Rudy 5/4 in college, and I both agree that most other CC tubas just can't compete with it.

I don't see reason to quote Lee; the two posts aren't really relevant. . . good to know you found something that works, though. Laskey 30h(helleburg style) worked very well on my big bore "air hog" piggy FWIW