RESOLVED: Pittsburgh Symphony strike

[joebob]

Who are you talking about ("they are subs now" and "being kept out of work by the union")? I'm talking about people who are members of or are subs in major symphony orchestras and people who are good enough to be. I highly doubt any of those people will cross the picket line. If you are talking about people who are not good enough to have a career as a member or sub with major orchestras than that is my point. People who have a real chance at an orchestra career will steer clear of a replacement orchestra.

I'm not telling people what to do. I'm explaining what will happen. If people want to test my hypothesis than I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Somehow I don't think anyone will test my theory.

[Three Valves]

Who are you talking about ("they are subs now" and "being kept out of work by the union")? I'm talking about people who are members of or are subs in major symphony orchestras and people who are good enough to be.

I wasn't aware subs were full time or even union members.

I thought they just showed up on call.

Do they resent the talent of those they sub for??

Or figure that guy is really better and deserves it more??

[Biggs]

People who have a real chance at an orchestra career will steer clear of a replacement orchestra.

In that case, I am the perfect candidate! PSO management, if you're reading this, I'll be waiting by the phone.

[Three Valves]

People who have a real chance at an orchestra career will steer clear of a replacement orchestra.

In that case, I am the perfect candidate! PSO management, if you're reading this, I'll be waiting by the phone.

Are you sure you want to start now, say at 80k a year, instead of doing the right thing, and wait another 20 years for the Principal to die??

I meant, "retire!!"

[pittbassdaddy]

Just forwarding along some info:

The musicians of the PSO are having an Arts Advocacy Concert this Sunday October 9th at 2:30 at the Pittsburgh Creative and Performing Arts School (CAPA).

[doublebuzzing]

There is no way that management will be able to hire "replacements" that are anywhere near a major orchestra standard. Anyone who is already a member of a full time orchestra or who subs with a full time orchestra will not work with a "replacement" orchestra because that would be the end of their career in union orchestras. Any conductor or soloist who worked with a replacement orchestra would never be hired by another professional orchestra. If they did get hired by a union orchestra the union members would walk off the stage as soon as that conductor or soloist got there. The only people who would work as "replacements" are people who already have no chance to ever work with a major symphony orchestra. Anyone who is actually good enough to play with the PSO would never risk their future careers by crossing the picket line.

Would you rather be a recent conservatory graduate working at Wal-Mart or someone who "only" makes (say) 75K to play in a symphony? If they hired a whole new orchestra at 75K, I am almost certain that the talent level of that orchestra wouldn't diminish so much that the average patron would notice

[John DiCesare]

Would you rather be a recent conservatory graduate working at Wal-Mart or someone who "only" makes (say) 75K to play in a symphony? If they hired a whole new orchestra at 75K, I am almost certain that the talent level of that orchestra wouldn't diminish so much that the average patron would notice

1. Anyone good enough to actually play in a professional orchestra(let alone the PSO) would rather work at Wal-Mart than scab a 75k gig. Bloke should have killed this fleeting thought with his comment above.

2. You'd notice. Audiences aren't stupid.

3. Everything contractual aside, the management is devaluing the entire profession and organization with their "offer" and letter. Everyone on this board that claims to be a musician is affected by this mind-set; not just the PSO. It blows my mind how many people on this thread fail to see that. Musicians aren't just another cog in the factory wheel, the PSO is filled with stars and they aren't replaceable. They're fighting for ALL OF US, not just a few dollars on their contract.

4. Rather than continuing the useless banter that has flooded this thread, here are ways you can actually help your colleagues in Pittsburgh.

http://musiciansofthepso.org/ Check out what they're doing, perhaps buy a shirt.

Email: opinion@tribweb.com" target="_blank and letter@post-gazette.com" target="_blank Email something to the two big papers, express concern or write a testimonial of how the PSO affected you.

http://pittsburghpa.gov/mayor/feedback Write the mayor and urge him to pressure management to get back at the negotiating table.

Lastly, friend them on facebook, the page is musicians of the pittsburgh symphony.

[sloan]

Real estate agents -- I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to handle all of the legal stuff and paperwork on my own. I would much rather work with a realtor and have them do all of that work and just tell me where to sign. Yes, their job of finding listings to look at is probably long gone... but I think it's still an important and necessary profession.

Travel agents -- what the hell are those?

You (arguably) don't even need a lawyer, if you go through a good title company.

Depends on the state. We've bought & sold several houses. In one state, a personal lawyer was virtually required. In others, the concept is unheard of.

[Three Valves]

3. Everything contractual aside, the management is devaluing the entire profession and organization with their "offer" and letter. Everyone on this board that claims to be a musician is affected by this mind-set; not just the PSO.

The profession has been devalued by it's inability to generate interest and revenue.

But enough of my useless banter!!

[bisontuba]

Would you rather be a recent conservatory graduate working at Wal-Mart or someone who "only" makes (say) 75K to play in a symphony? If they hired a whole new orchestra at 75K, I am almost certain that the talent level of that orchestra wouldn't diminish so much that the average patron would notice

1. Anyone good enough to actually play in a professional orchestra(let alone the PSO) would rather work at Wal-Mart than scab a 75k gig. Bloke should have killed this fleeting thought with his comment above.

2. You'd notice. Audiences aren't stupid.

3. Everything contractual aside, the management is devaluing the entire profession and organization with their "offer" and letter. Everyone on this board that claims to be a musician is affected by this mind-set; not just the PSO. It blows my mind how many people on this thread fail to see that. Musicians aren't just another cog in the factory wheel, the PSO is filled with stars and they aren't replaceable. They're fighting for ALL OF US, not just a few dollars on their contract.

4. Rather than continuing the useless banter that has flooded this thread, here are ways you can actually help your colleagues in Pittsburgh.

http://musiciansofthepso.org/ Check out what they're doing, perhaps buy a shirt.

Email: opinion@tribweb.com" target="_blank" target="_blank and letter@post-gazette.com" target="_blank" target="_blank Email something to the two big papers, express concern or write a testimonial of how the PSO affected you.

http://pittsburghpa.gov/mayor/feedback Write the mayor and urge him to pressure management to get back at the negotiating table.

Lastly, friend them on facebook, the page is musicians of the pittsburgh symphony.

Big +1

[roweenie]

The profession has been devalued by it's inability to generate interest and revenue.

But enough of my useless banter!!

It's easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking that when we hit an economic snag or a downturn, that we're the only ones who have ever experienced this problem.

All tastes change. One hundred years ago, men wore starched detachable collars; all department stores sold them, and all laundries had the special equipment and skills to clean them. Today, there's only one manufacturer, and one laundry in the entire world that is in this business. Why? Because (almost) nobody uses them anymore (otherwise known as "supply and demand"). I wasn't there when this fad passed on, but I wonder if there was any organised effort to save their jobs.

One hundred years ago, every town had a blacksmith. Enter the automobile, exit the blacksmith (otherwise known as "supply and demand".) I wasn't there, either, so I don't know if there was an organised effort to save their jobs.

One hundred years ago, there were several full-time professional independent (non-military, taxpayer supported) concert bands traveling across this country, bringing quality music to multitudes of people. How many are left today? Answer: none ("supply and demand"). I wasn't there, but I wonder if there was an organised effort to save their jobs.

Thirty years ago, I made a living playing tuba on "your father's moustache" type gigs. Today, I almost never get called for gigs like this. Why? Because (almost) nobody wants to hear that stuff anymore; the (former) patrons are all dead now (otherwise known as "supply and demand".) This time, I was there, and I can assure you there was no organised effort to save my jobs.

Symphony orchestra music is a beautiful and high art; I would love to see it continue forever. Unfortunately, in our society, it is in decline, and the resulting financial problems are inevitable (aka "supply and demand").

By definition, there is always a small minority of folks that lament the passing of a trend.

[Three Valves]

It's easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking that when we hit an economic snag or a downturn, that we're the only ones who have ever experienced this problem.

It's especially distasteful in a city like Pittsburgh, Detroit or Cleveland.

[Bowerybum]

This excellent column by Terry Teachout appeared in the Wall Street Journal last week. It's a short worthy read. I liked this:
"“Demand” is the key word here. In 1967, classical music still occupied a central position in our high culture. Now it doesn’t. Most Americans don’t care about classical music and don’t go to orchestral concerts. I think they should, but it doesn’t matter what I think. They’ll do what they want to do—and one thing they don’t want to do is go out of their way to hike the salary of a violinist in Philadelphia who already makes over $2,400 a week, especially when the median weekly household income in the U.S. is $1,073 (which is roughly what the average London orchestra player earns per week).
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-money-pit-1476912194" target="_blank" target="_blank

[joebob]

I don't know how the WSJ article writer determined that demand in 1967 was higher than today. The article states that musicians were paid less in 1967 yet somehow with lower demand they are paid more today. It sounds like orchestral musicians have done well with their contract negotiations since 1967. I would expect that in the end of this negotiation the PSO musicians will come out with a contract with better terms than what management has initially offered them. Will the terms be better enough to compensate for the lost salary from the weeks on strike? I don't know.

[barry grrr-ero]

"The profession has been devalued by it's inability to generate interest and revenue"

. . . so too the English language, it seems.

"Over in Europe, the governments toss money at arts and the orchestras"

True but it's also declining. They can no longer afford symphony orchestras and opera companies in every single hamlet. Depending on whose opinion you want to believe, Europe may be in for big doo-doo. They also have problems putting butts in their seats, just like here.

"here are ways you can actually help your colleagues in Pittsburgh"

I mean no disrespect in saying this, but . . . as much as I may admire and enjoy hearing the great musicians of the PSO, they are not my colleagues. That does not mean I wish them any harm in this difficult negotiation. It does mean that they can fend for themselves. More to the point, I HAVE supported them by buying some of their recordings * *. Perhaps that might be a better way of showing the 'suits' that there's a trickle of demand for quality performances.

* * Mahler 3/4/5 (Honeck); Bruckner 4 (Honeck); Dvorak/Janacek (Honeck); Shostakovich 8 (Jansons/EMI); Brahms 1-4 (Janowski); Strauss: Alpine Symphony (Janowski)

http://pittsburghsymphonyorchestra.bigc ... tegory/cds" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

My guess is that this gets resolved before Bruckner 8, Mahler 2, Beethoven 6/Mahler: Des Knaben Wunderhorn - all of them near the end of the season (it's just a guess).

[bisontuba]

Wonderful!!!