Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

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marccromme
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Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

Wessex/Jinbao Eb tuba
Model: TE495-L or TE495-S Danube
Valves: 5+0 rotary
Bell: 16½” (420mm)
Bore: 0.748″-0.827″ (19-21mm)
Receiver: American shank size
Tuning: 443Hz to 440Hz
(5th valve thumb operated providing flat tone/step)
Gold brass leadpipe
Nickel inner and outer slides
Height: 97cm (38″)
TE495-L gold brass
TE495-S silver plated
Mouthpiece: Yamaha Bobo Solo, Dennis Wick Ultra AT5U (American shank)

First a disclaimer: I am amateur musician, and have played for 35
years trombone (alto, tenor and bass) and euph, before I just one year
ago started playing Eb bass in our 1st division brass band. My
opinions might be colored from my lack of years of tuba experience.

If you are searching for a British style 3+1 compensated 19" bell Eb
bass, don't bother reading on. The Danube is a fine 5v rotary Eb tuba,
but behaves quite differently from a traditional brass band Eb bass.

I had taken the Danube out of the well-constructed foam box (canvas
covered) and directly to brass band rehearsal. After a half hour
getting-used to it, it worked fine for me. Except for the fingerings
of the lowest octave, which is quite different from a 3+1 compensated
setup, but I did learn that fast over the past weeks.

I have a few small observations on the build quality: overall it seems
good. Silver finish looks nice. Some solderings could use a bit
more solder, but the large solderings on the bow protections and bow
assemblies are all fine.

There has been forgotten a 3x4 cm piece of clear tape on the bow of
the instrument, probably a remaining from a plastic cover after silver
plating. I used a mild petrol product to dissolve the glue and take it off.

The tubing is logical and nicely designed, and the tuba drains well
from the spit valve during hours of playing. To get the last drops out
of the 4th valve and the curl near the main tuning slide, one has to
remove the 4th slide and the main tuning slide and turn the tuba one
rotation anti-clockwise. Unfortunately, the spit valve did leak and
needed a replacement cork from the beginning.

Valves are working nice, except 4th valve which did drag upon
delivery. Otherwise, they did work smooth and silent from the
beginning. After a couple of weeks the 2nd and 3rd valve started to
become noisy and are still to noisy for my taste. They probably are in
need of adjustment and re-oiling. Now the 4th valve runs fine. I
really love rotary valves and prefer them over pistons.

All valve slides are too sticky for my taste, I can't manipulate them
with my left hand, this needs to get fixed with extra lapping and
oiling. 5th valve slide looks very long on the pictures, but it has a rather
short pull. I suggest that the next batch is optimized for easy slide
manipulations, as this is needed to play in tune in the low 4th and 5th
valve register.

The main bows are of a softer brass quality than the bell, too soft
for my taste, as I already have picked up 4 small dents in the upper and
lower main bow during normal handling, but the bell is still spotless.

Pitch is fine, I can get the instrument up to 443 Hz when the tuning
slide is full in, and can easily adjust down to 440Hz.

Intonation and partials are in general fine, except for the 5th partial which is
pretty flat in all a valve combinations. In slow passages I have to
play G3 1+2, Gb3 2+3, F3 1+3, E3 2+4 (or 2+3+5) to adjust pitch
up. The octaves 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th partial are general fine, (Eb1
to Eb4), pedals are playing well, but need a bit of lipping down. Top
octave in 8th partials (Eb4 to B3 2+3) are spot on. This is with the
Yamaha Bobo Solo mouthpiece. Using the DW Ultra AT5U (which has a
larger cup), intonation and partials suffer a bit, the high register
is getting too low, but the bottom rocks.

The lower 4th and 5th valve combinations do respond and sound well
down to A1 (spot on with 2+3+5), Ab1 (spot on with 4+5) and G1 (slightly low with 2+3+4
(now corrected from typo 3+4+5), but Gb1 to E1 are tricky, require much
lipping, and have therefore worse response and somewhat dull tonal
quality. Here a well-functioning easy slide manipulation on 4th and
5th slide, or a trigger on each, would have helped a lot.

Sound has a nice core to it in middle and low range, and the tuba
blows easy and with good response. I can even effortless play a true
pianissimo all over the range, that is great news, and I can produce a
broad and powerfull fff.

But I think the Danube is lacking a bit of singing tonal quality in the high
range, there I would have liked more brightness and clarity in the sound.

The Danube is large and powerfull enough to fill the upper Eb bass
part I am playing, and blends fine with the Yamaha Eb, the Yamha Bb
and the Sovereign Bb in use in our brass band (all 3+1 compensated).

Personally I would have preferred a slightly slimmer Eb tuba, with
clearer sound and a bit more bite and core in the higher range. I
prefer playing the Danube with the Roger Bobo mouthpiece, but my brass band
conductor likes the DW Ultra sound, so it's up to me to get used to
the Danube and make the best out of it in Brass Band settings.

The Danube is definitely an improvement over my old Besson 3+1
compensated Eb bass, and I did try 8 other used and new Eb and F tubas
before choosing this one.

It was not the best instrument I tried, but the best instrument for
the amount of money I was willing to spend.

Others I liked really much where the Miraphone Electra F, and the
Besson Sovereign 17" bell Eb, but these where new and at a higher price, so I
passed. I would have loved to try a Miraphone Eb Nordic Star, and
compare the Danube to it, but there was none on the used market or on
shelf near Copenhagen.

I believe that there are better and more costly Eb tubas to be found,
on the other hand I am pretty sure I could not have found a better Eb
tuba - used or new - for the money I was willing to spend.

Overall, I am pretty happy with my Danube, I think the musical
qualities are fine, but I wish there would be more attention to the
mechanical details, and I wish it was a bit slimmer and more singing
in the high register.

I am a happy man and brass band is now much more fun than with my old Besson.
Last edited by marccromme on Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by arpthark »

Would 234 yield a better in tune low G?
marccromme
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

arpthark wrote:Would 234 yield a better in tune low G?
Yes, my typo, I meant 234, and then G is a tad low, but absolutely playable.
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Wyvern »

Marc,

That you for your review and positive comment which will help us to make the Danube a better tuba still.

Just to answer a few points;
marccrommee wrote:There has been forgotten a 3x4 cm piece of clear tape on the bow of
the instrument, probably a remaining from a plastic cover after silver
plating. I used a mild petrol product to dissolve the glue and take it off.
The tubas are wrapped in cling-film while the valves and slides are fitted to protect from scratching. My guess is that was simply a bit of cling-film left behind which was not spotted in subsequent cleaning/polishing or checking. Goes to show, however carefully we check, we can never examine as closely as the eventual owner.
marccrommee wrote:After a couple of weeks the 2nd and 3rd valve started to
become noisy and are still to noisy for my taste. They probably are in
need of adjustment and re-oiling.
Most likely the valves require oiling. I remember a Luzern that was brought back to me because a valve was noisy. I stupidly without checking took to my instrument repairer, only for him to get out the oil and give though lubrication - for the noise to be gone. Increased noise in rotary valves are often a sign they require oiling. I now oil first!
marccrommee wrote:5th valve slide looks very long on the pictures, but it has a rather
short pull.
Unfortunately there is not space to make the 5th valve slide more than ½ inch longer without it hitting the bell on pulling. It has about 3 inches pull which is not I would think too bad. The only other solution would be to fold back like on the Berg F tuba, but I am reluctant to add extra bends where they can be avoided.
58mark wrote:It's funny, you wish the horn was smaller, and I wish it was larger. I guess you really can't please everyone
Certainly shows we can't please everyone! :wink: The original idea of the Danube was to place it between the Norwegian Star and Starlight tonally, as personally I find the former too broad for a rotary Eb and the latter too light - but we all have our own taste. I am currently playing a Danube Eb for performance of Wagner Tannhauser where I find it's tone nearest to what I am trying to produce for this music.

Anyway, I hope you continue to get on well with the tuba Marc. Don't hesitate to give me further feedback as you gain experience. I am always working to make the Wessex tubas better.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

58mark wrote:Good, detailed review. Any chance of you posting a video of it in action? a little demo?
Thanks, Hmm, not sure, I only have a flimsy android phone to make recordings on, I would need a better setup, or at least a good microphone to do the instrument justice.
58mark wrote:When I played one in June I thought it has some tuning issues, but I didn't get a chance to try it with more than my Bloke Solo. It's possible things could be different for different people
The Danube likes Bobo Solo -like mouthpieces with smaller cups. It did not work well with deep funnel-style mouthpieces, at least not for me, then the high register suffers in both intonation and tonal quality. One day I tried 15 mouthpieces from the collection of my teacher, and the general impression was that shallower cups and cups which are bowl-shaped worked best.

In addition, I had to un-learn some intonation habits from my previous experience with the Besson, On the Besson I had to squeeze the high register up, and had to lip the lowest register down, and the Danube does not like this habit. Now I am playing more relaxed, as less lipping is needed to play in tune.
58mark wrote:It's funny, you wish the horn was smaller, and I wish it was larger. I guess you really can't please everyone
Yes, you can't please everybody ... especially not when considering the fact that I am only dabbeling on a tuba, but have bass and tenor trombone as my main instrument.

But I think the Danube is a fine all-round instrument, which I use for British Brass Band Eb bass parts with the DW Ultra AT5U, and would not hesitate to use in smaller ensembles or Big Band with the Yamaha Bobo Solo.

Other Danube owners, please speak up and share your experiences. I am especially interested in hearing comparisitions to the two Miraphone Eb models Starlght and Nordic Star.

As tuba is only my less-frequent used doubling instrument, I am pretty happy with the Danube, as it provides me with a good compromise for all my usage situations. I do not plan to buy any other tuba in near future, except maybe a cheap crappy Eb tuba or helicon for our marching gigs.
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

Wyvern wrote: Most likely the valves require oiling. I remember a Luzern that was brought back to me because a valve was noisy. I stupidly without checking took to my instrument repairer, only for him to get out the oil and give though lubrication - for the noise to be gone. Increased noise in rotary valves are often a sign they require oiling. I now oil first!
I had yet no time to have a closer look at the issue, as we are preparing for the Danish Brass Band Championships, and I rather use my spare time for practicing. But I will try oiling first. Thanks!
Wyvern wrote: Unfortunately there is not space to make the 5th valve slide more than ½ inch longer without it hitting the bell on pulling. It has about 3 inches pull which is not I would think too bad. The only other solution would be to fold back like on the Berg F tuba, but I am reluctant to add extra bends where they can be avoided.
No,no, please do not fold it back, just make sure that all valve slides do run easy and smooth such that they can be manipulated during low-register playing. I plan to hone mine when I get the time. Maybe you want to consider adding these famous shoe-laces to prevent the slides from falling off when tuning the tuba upside down ??
Wyvern wrote: The original idea of the Danube was to place it between the Norwegian Star and Starlight tonally, as personally I find the former too broad for a rotary Eb and the latter too light - but we all have our own taste. I am currently playing a Danube Eb for performance of Wagner Tannhauser where I find it's tone nearest to what I am trying to produce for this music.
Jonathan - which mouthpiece works well for you on the Danube ?? Do you mind sharing your experiences?
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Wyvern »

marccromme wrote: Jonathan - which mouthpiece works well for you on the Danube ?? Do you mind sharing your experiences?
For Tannhauser I am using a very shallow cup Wessex cimbasso mouthpiece which makes the tuba really sing in the high register. But when using in band, I played with the deep Wessex Chief to provide a broad tone, although most people would think that mouthpiece way too big for the tuba.

BTW The Chief is my personal 'go-to' mouthpiece. For me it seems to work on most tubas.

I have also tried with 24AW mouthpiece popular in UK for Eb tubas and that does not work - really kills the tuba
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by MaryAnn »

Don't overlook the Chief because it's not one of the name brands. That is a nice mouthpiece.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

MaryAnn wrote:Don't overlook the Chief because it's not one of the name brands. That is a nice mouthpiece.
Can't find this mouthpiece on Wessex site - is the one provided with the Danube tuba the Wessex Chief ??
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Wyvern »

No, it is not provided with Danube, that is the F1. The 'Chief' is provided with some of Wessex contrabass tubas

http://www.wessex-tubas.co.uk/product/c ... outhpiece/
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Dustytuba »

Thank you so much for this great review. It is really hard to find an Eb tuba in our area that plays well. I purchased an Eb through the internet, and I am just not happy with the sound. Even with a cheep cell phone I would think scales would tell the story better, on how a tuba sounds, both on the low end and up high. Let me make this very clear, the best way is to play the tuba itself, not a prototype or a sample, but the actual tuba that is for sale. Will Wessex, or any one else have Eb Tubas to try, and are for sale in the Southeast US. I went to Tuba exchange and tried a Packer, and hated the sound, and the feel, I liked the Petersburg, but the price is just out of my range.
But now Wessex, and the other made in China Tubas, are at a $4000 price point, so it will come down finding a used Eb that is in my area that I can play before buying, or if someone actually has a new Eb that I can hold, play and fall in love with the sound, in the Southeast USA.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Wyvern »

Dustytuba, You are best to get over to the US Army Conference February 3-4 and try what is available there. Wessex will be exhibiting with Gnagey and Danube Eb tubas available to try.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

Wyvern wrote: Most likely the valves require oiling. I remember a Luzern that was brought back to me because a valve was noisy. I stupidly without checking took to my instrument repairer, only for him to get out the oil and give though lubrication - for the noise to be gone. Increased noise in rotary valves are often a sign they require oiling. I now oil first!
Yes, they did - and in addition all screws in the linkeage system needed tightening. Even the small screws holding the horse-shoes. Now the situation improved: second and third valve are still more noisy than the others, but much better now.
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

My second Danube Eb tuba arrived - and build quality improved.

I must praise Wessex customer service and warranty: as stated before, the lower main bow had issues with soft spots catching dents to easily, so I contacted Jonathan from Wessex for a solution. Wessex did arrange a pick-up in Copenhagen, and 10 days later a brand-new replacement Danube arrived.

The second Danube seem to come from a later batch, it has a nicely engraved logo on the bell (the fist one had a printed logo).

Build quality did improve: valves are running smooth from day one, polish/finish is even better, and the valve slides do operate more freely. Also metal sheet quality seems consistent now.

The musical properties are pretty much the same, except for a slightly better response. I really love the fast rotary valves which in my humble opinion are an improvement over TA pistons. The Danube plays sweet and well with a Bobo Solo.

It has a brighter sound quality than the MW 2141 I borrowed (DW Ultra AT3U), but the Danube has enough oumph to support a Eb bass voice in brass band if played with a DW Ultra AT5U (turned down to American shank).

Further improvement would be to add a 4th valve trigger or handle ring to get the last three deep notes in tune, but that is entirely another wish.

I do thank for swift action and a satisfactory solution to my issues - the replacement is better than the original one. Thanks, Wessex!
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by jeopardymaster »

Very interesting posts, thanks all. My Danube-related questions have been addressed, and I look forward to trying one soon. Noting the mention of the Gnagey Eb -- is it in production now? I've only seen/played Sam's prototype (if that is the right word for it). Loved it, and am curious about what if any mods are in store for production instruments.
Gnagey CC, VMI Neptune 4098 CC, Mirafone 184-5U CC and 56 Bb, Besson 983 EEb and euphonium, King marching baritone, Alexander 163 BBb, Conn 71H/112H bass trombone, Olds Recording tenor trombone.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Wyvern »

The first batch of Gnagey Eb have all sold out and we are awaiting second batch, late May.

Quite a few tweaks have taken place since prototype including improved 5th valve linkage, re-routed 4th valve tubing and slight change to internal profile to make it play even better.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by WagnerRing »

I'd be interested to hear more details of your long-term experience with the Wessex Danube, now that you've had the horn for an extended period of time. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Last edited by WagnerRing on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by marccromme »

Hi Scott (WagnerRing)

In general my comments and observations from my first posting stand as spoken, this is how the instrument behaves.

I had a silver plated Danube from the first batch, build quality was in general good, but not perfect. Except for a larger area on the lower main bow, where the sheet metal was too soft and took dents too easily. Also two of the valves where too noisy for my taste.

I did complain about that, and got under Wessex excellent warranty service my horn swapped for a brand new one from the second build batch. This I call good customer service!!!!

The second batch did improve in silver finish, general build quality, and valve action, and there are no soft spots or noisy valves to be found any more. Length of valve slides seems to be adjusted a bit, I don't need to pull as much as before to suit the instruments intonation to my needs.

The new instrument has still slightly flat 5th partials, so I prefer to play g (upper staff) with 1+2, gb with 2+3 and f with 1+3 or 4 in slow, lyrical passages. The valve slides have better honing than before, but 4th and 3rd slide would need additional honing to be able to serve as friction-less trigger (they are easy accessible for the left hand from the backside of the instrument). This is an improvement I would like to have done soon.

I can't compare to the Miraphone Eb tubas, there are just not found on the shelf near Copenhagen, and as far as I know, there is nobody playing one here. But I can compare to the Meinl-Weston 2141 4 FA+1 rotary, I own a used one from 2009. The MW2141 is broader in sound, and has an easier low register than the Danube (but the Danube has a fine low register by its own, better than the 50 years old 4+1 compensated Besson I played before).

In addition, the MW2141 has the 5th partials almost in tune, which is not often found. On the other hand, it's easier to play fast and exact with the Danube's rotary valves than FA pistons. The MW2141 allows me to play larger mouthpieces like the Meinl-Weston 24AW or the DW ultra 3U, the Danube best likes the Yamaha Roger Bobo solo or the DW ultra 5U.

The MW2141 (44cm bell) is slightly better suited to Eb bass parts in traditional Brass Band literature (which can go pretty low), as would be a standard 4+1 Yamaha or Besson Sovereign 48 cm bell tuba, whereas the Danube (42cm) with a slightly brighter sound is perfect for community band, Big Band, smaller brass ensembles and quintets. And it is more compact to lug around in parades.

On the other hand, I did use the Danube for 6 month in Brass Band, the upper Eb bass part, and it worked fine, and was definitely an improvement over the old Besson I had borrowed before. So, if you are looking for one all-round Eb tuba for mixed playing, the Danube does fit the bill.

Now having a MW2141 (which I got by a sheer lucky strike used from a musician in the Danish Royal Guard two month ago) and a Danube, I think the tonal difference is not far enough apart to warrant keeping them both in the long term.

I might consider selling my Danube to buy a used and smaller Eb tuba, like a 38cm bell 18mm Starlight, if I can find one, or an Amati or something the like. Or an Eb helicon for parades, but have not decided yet.

Best, yours Marc Cromme
Yamaha YEB-321 Eb 4v TA tuba
Meinl-Weston 2141 Eb 5v FA tuba
Hirsbrunner Bb 3v TA compensated euph
Wessex Dolce Bb 3+1v TA compensated euph
Alto/tenor/bass trombones in various sizes/plugs
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by WagnerRing »

Thank you Marc for your detailed reply. I appreciate it.
Last edited by WagnerRing on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Review of the Danube Eb 5v rotary tuba silver plated

Post by Ltrain »

...and if you decide you do want to sell your horn...

...and you're in the US...

Hit me up 8)
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