TubeNet

intonation problems ?

Here´s what happened to me:
- Bought new horn (PT20 with PT50+ MP). Loved the sound boost as compared to my F and practised to enhance it even more.
- Acquired habit of using lots of relaxed lip tissue and jaws wide open in the process, resulting in nice big sound AND drop of pitch. (Didn´t own a tuner back then, so I didn´t notice.)
- Joined new ensemble and found out about pitch issues. They tune to 443-444 Hz because of reeds. Finally bought tuner, and this is what I got: constant 20 cents flat at A440 in all ranges, not to speak of A443. (I tried not to fool myself: started note with closed eyes and looked what I got after I had made sure the note was steady). I figure I was well in tune with myself, but not with anybody else.
- Rearranged embouchure to meet the required A443 tuning. Lipping alone did only part of the job, because the sound tightened up. It was a lot of work, but I´m up there now at the expense of a slight decrease in sound quality (that´s my subjective impression). Bad thing is: inconsistencies in intonation have shown up all of a sudden. Using a different mouthpiece doesn´t seem to help.

At this time I have no access to a professional instructor to seek help on this, so I had to get used to contemplate on what I´m doing. Playing with earplugs (noise protection) came in very handy on this one.
It was difficult to figure out ways to lip the pitch up while keeping the sound big, and I feel I could do better. What I´m asking is:
- Why is it that horns aren´t built to handle larger tuning ranges between, say, A438 and A445, the modern setting of A440 being somewhere in between ? (Maybe they are and I just happen to have a horribly flat embouchure ?)
- Any suggestions how to solve tuning issues short of cutting the horn ? Since it is so well in tune with itself, I don´t want to mess with its physique. I´m suspitious that it´s a matter of bad habit rather than flaws in equipment (horn as well as MP).
- Could it just be a matter of time to resolve this ?
I know that it is impossible to provide THE RIGHT ANSWER in form of a long-distance-diagnosis. However, your experiences and suggestions would be appreciated.

Yours
Hans

I have heard from a very experienced repair professional that he has had to cut the tuning slides on horns for a number of top professional players for this very reason. His comment was that the better players tend to play relatively "flatter" for the reasons you state. I think that it would be helpful if tubas had long tuning slides that bottomed out at about A=445, although where that is depends on the player, so it is hard to do.

You need to talk to a good instructor to see what they have to say. I owuld think that you would be better off not trying to lip up everything, but should look for a mechanical solution.

I agree with the guys who say you might want to have a repairman cut the horn to bring the pitch up. I play a PT20 (With a Mike Finn 2) and I find that my slides come most of the way in, most of the time.

If you have a good embouchure and the air is flowing well and the sound (most importantly) is good, don't mess with that.

Lew wrote:I have heard from a very experienced repair professional that he has had to cut the tuning slides on horns for a number of top professional players for this very reason. His comment was that the better players tend to play relatively "flatter" for the reasons you state.

Hot dog! I've finally gotten good enough to play flat all the time!

Rick "but wait..." Denney

I had to cut slides on my Yorkbrunner. I couldn't stand it, and got it done less than a week after it arrived.

Hey, if a CC horn played flat enough you could call it a high pitch BBb. (The one and only, very exclusive high pitch BBb Yorkbrunner)

YESSSS thanks, Rick, I was thinking along those lines, too.
I´M PROUD TO PLAY FLAT!!! STRIKE!!! This definitely turns me into a pro !!!
But seriously, people, I have this thing about not to touch a running system. This horn works real well if left alone. I use it as a means of recreation and just happen to be playing it with people who play unreasonably sharp this season. You know, everybody is supposed to dig the A440. (Just to be blunt here).
Have those oboes who make up their own MPs anyways just add a millimeter or two for that matter.
I just can´t see the point in having someone screw up the horn´s great intonation with a hacksaw if there is a way I can fix it using my face as well as my brain. That thing was bought used from a SERIOUS professional who definitely CHOSE that particular horn out of several of the same model, so it must have worked before I got it.

This is why I blame the tuning issues on myself and not the horn. Plus, I manage to play (reasonably) in tune if I allow myself some compromises in the sound quality available when I play with A437. I just don´t want to put up with that and thought there might be some hints out there.
I want to work hard on this. Just what do I want to concentrate on?
I did try out a smaller MP, by the way, but that didn´t seem to do any good.

Hans

tubeast wrote:I did try out a smaller MP, by the way, but that didn´t seem to do any good.

Based on reading (and not experience), a mouthpiece with a smaller cup and the same throat might help. A larger throat may help, too. But many smaller mouthpiece have smaller throats, and this won't do any good. Larger throats and smaller cups both raise the center of the resonance of the mouthpiece a bit. Don't expect much here. I haven't even considered it with my own problem, though I intend to experiment a bit in my collection.

But there's a limit to how much we can overcome playing an instrument built for A440 in a group that insists on playing the pitch inflation game. Tell them that there is a reason for international pitch standards.

Rick "wondering why violinists who play half-million-dollar Strads tolerate stringing their instruments so tightly" Denney

If you're worried about cutting, order a second main tuning slide and then have it trimmed. This way, you can immediately switch back to your "perfect" original equipment and set-up. As posted above, if the horn is available with a shorter main tuning slide as a Euro option, order one of these (if you don't already have it).

Regards,

You'd have to assume the european slide would have a shorter length of tubing overall, and the legs might be the same length but the curved tube would be shorter.
You're right, cutting the legs wouldn't make any difference; you might have to have a shorter slide custom made. I think it would be worth it in order to avoid make huge embouchure changes for a group that plays that sharp.
MA

Thanks for all your comments. I found quite a bit of useful information in Rick Denney´s thread on the same subject.

"Why would someone want to mess with their embouchure..."

Well, Bloke, yours sure is a funny story (or a sad one, depends on one´s attitude), because I take it those professors would technically have been able to meet you pitch-wise. There are several reasons that could persuade me to take all that trouble with the embouchure:
- as I said, I tend to play almost a quarter tone flat on A440 already, so I´ll have to do something about THAT, at the least.
Maybe two different slides would come in handy here.
- this is not a paid gig, but one of the rare occasions to play in an ensemble which consists of 70+ musicians / bandnerds dedicated to what they´re doing at 100%. I just want to play there.
- I´d feel much more comfortable if I had an option to push that slide in an inch or two. What about playing with organ in a freezing church in winter? But then again, the slide legs of the main slide are not so very long, and reach almost up to the fourth valve ( It´s a rotary PT20), so this would involve cutting both slide receiver AND slide, restricting the tuning range on the low end quite a bit.

Sounds like a second, shorter tuning slide is an option.

Hans

rcane wrote:Steve, you idea of the getting a new tuning slide and having it trimmed sounds like a good idea. I'm curious though as to how you cut it to make the horn play sharper? If you cut the ends down then don't you just limit the amount you an make the horn flatter?

You also have to cut the tubes on the horn. That give you a shorter slide. You still have the original length slide to lower the pitch again later. It'll stop at the same (longer) length, just some of the inner slide will still show.

And yes the old lenght slide will not have the full range it once had, since you're missing some of the outer tube. If that's a problem you could make an even longer (inner) slide.

Maybe instead of a completely seperate slide, make some extensions for the short slide?
They'd just be and outer tubing soldered to a piece of inner tubing. That'd slide onto the slide and lengthen it. Might take some trial to get the short slide and extension lengths worked out though.