TubeNet

Okay, this is similar to the experience of Tubeast. I'm scared of him so I'm not going to hijack his thread. (Hey, he SAID to beware the Tubeast.)

My pitch on the Holton has slid to the flat side by about 20 cents over the last year. It's not the mouthpiece, and it's not leaky valves or anything like that. It's me. But now I can't seem to fix it.

In the low register, I can move the pitch as needed. The upper register, where I have to strain, tends more sharp and isn't a problem. But I can play naturally and with a good sound in the low register such that it is in tune with the middle register, and I think I naturally do so when I don't have the feedback of the needle.

I can pick pitches all day that are 20 cents flat just about anywhere on the instrument. They are consistently 20 cents flat, so I don't think it's an issue of one partial being out of whack.

The issue has come to head because our section has new players with less experience, one of whom tends rather sharp. I'm trying to find her, and just can't get high enough.

My first reaction is to get out the hacksaw, but the tuning slide on the Holton is only about 3" long dripping wet, and I'm a bit scared to shorten it.

Mouthpiece is a Laskey 30H. Same effect with a PT-48.

In performance, it hasn't really been a problem. Our band always has a range of pitches to tune from. In other ensembles, it also hasn't been a problem--so either I or the others are unconsciously making repairs. Or, we are enough octaves apart so nobody can tell.

But I'll be darned if I can play a Bb to tune the band and have the oboe player, with her blasted tuner, approve of it, while still maintaining a stable, resonant sound. I used to be able to, or (more likely) my definition of good sound has moved.

Lew observed in the other thread that some instruments are consistently flat in the hands of better players who have an appropriately relaxed embouchure. I think I'd be inflating my self-esteem to put myself in that category, but I certainly am more relaxed than I once was, and I know I'm more relaxed than the aforementioned sharp players. It could also be a weak embouchure which hasn't caught up to my use of less pressure. But at my age, improvement comes slowly.

What say ye?

Rick "tired of being told I'm flat during tuning" Denney

Rick,

Buddy, ol pal. Do you have the problem on your other horns? If not, I think it is the horn. Mine never plays flat. I'll trade ya straight across.

Sounds about par for the course, Rick.

I think it's more of a learned habit (it happens to me too) than anything physiological. We all learn to relax into the low pitches and perhaps to pull them down some, particularly in the "pedal" range. I think after awhile, we just overdo it.

In no particular connection with the topic at hand, I've found that practicing with one of those "stroboscopic" tuners (I've got a fairly ancient Seiko) is a lot more valuable for learning to keep a steady pitch than the traditional "needle" type. It's darned difficult trying to keep the display steady and really sharpens the hearing.

harold wrote:When I started playing a big horn, I spoke with Mike Russell - formerly the principal with Seattle. He told me that when you are playing these horns, that you can't go to the horn - you need to bring it to you.

Provided that your problem is not posture related, there are a few other things to consider - none of which you will like.

...

On the other hand, if you are only having the problem with the Holton, perhaps that isn't a good horn for you to play. I'd be willing to keep it for you until you get your problem solved.

And Mike Sanders told me long ago that with the big horn, one needed to relax and let the horn do the work, heh, heh.

That last think you mentioned I like the least, though I'm grateful to everyone for their willingness to relieve me of this pain I'm suffering. Call me masochistic, but I think I'll press on with what I have.

I don't suspect that my pitch sense is any worse than it ever has been, and I also don't suspect that it's ever been very good by professional musician standards.

And I had a similar tendency on the York Master, with the 4th-partial Bb being a bit flat compared to the 2nd-partial Bb. But I could find a slide setting that would give me a reasonable compromise and work from there. With the Holton, I can't keep the pitch centered-sounding and bring the Bb up to pitch according to a tuner being viewed by someone else across the room. (I.e., I don't think I'm fooling myself by trying to visually move a needle.)

I thought it might be the fourth partial. After all, these instruments are not known for having perfect intonation. So, last night, I spent some time with it. I played the Bb with a centered tone (and the slide all the way in), and it was about 15 or 20 cents flat. Then, I adjusted valve slides and I played all other notes on the scale, with a centered tone, and found that I could easily get a good sound on all of them also 15 cents flat. That tells me I'm adjusting pitches where doing so is easy without undermining the sound.

Thus, I would like it if I could tune the instrument about 15 cents sharper than it is, and then adjust using my ear. I think I'd be working less hard to blend with the other pitches around me. My pitch sense would not be any better than it is, but I think my solution space would be a little more forgiving.

Finally, considering the build reputation and variability of the Holtons, I would not be willing to bet anything that any given instrument was built to the correct basic pitch in the first place.

Rick "who can play any instrument out of tune" Denney

Rick, I'm guessing you've already calculated this, so I'll just leave my calculator in the drawer and ask you: IF you were going to shorten it, how much would it need to be shortened?
___________________________
Joe Baker, who is unable to think outside the box until he knows how big the box is.

Joe Baker wrote:Rick, I'm guessing you've already calculated this, so I'll just leave my calculator in the drawer and ask you: IF you were going to shorten it, how much would it need to be shortened?

Actually, I haven't calculated it. I was rather hoping that Chuck would save me the trouble, heh, heh.

Let's see... A BBb tuba has a fundamental of 29.135 Hz at A440. At a speed of sound of 13,397 inches/sec, that comes to a bugle length of 229.91 inches, assuming no bell effects. The instrument will be 15 cents flat at 28.884 Hz, which leads to a length of 231.91 inches. So, I'd need to cut exactly 2.0000 inches off the instrument (howzat for lucky?). That's an inch off each leg. It would leave about an inch or a bit more of usable slide, though, which is not much, and probably not enough for correcting pitch outdoors on a hot day (which is how my main slide got a dent in it--to pacify our summer conductor at the July 4 gig a year and a half ago, I had to pull out so far that the slide fell out the rest of the what in the middle of a tune).

I'm reminded that Jacobs had a problem fighting the general flatness of the York, and Renold Schilke fixed it for him py pulling a hacksaw out of his locker. I guess that would put me in good company.

Rick "wondering what the techs think is a minimum usable slide length" Denney

russ dickman wrote:I think that B&S F tuba is messing you up so you should sell it to me.

Russ

Once again, the vast generosity of Tubenet has overwhelmed me.

Rick "or not" denney

Rick,

There is an exercise that I found useful: I have a cheap electric piano/synthesizer that has the great property of being exactly in tune (for an equally-tempered scale). No stretched octaves.

I sit at that synthesizer, playing a scale or arpeggio with my left hand, and using my right hand to play the same scale or arpeggio on the tuba. [If doing that simultaneously is too much, you can use MIDI or the synthesizer's memory to play the scales for you.]

Matching pitches with the synthesizer can be a challenge. The main advantage is you have to rely on your ear. No needles or strobes or other people's opinions. It works for me.

By the way, I have found that as I develop, I periodically adjust the main tuning slide of my horn, mostly pushing it in slightly. So far, I have not drawn a conclusion about this process.

Best of luck,
Allen Walker

Rick Denney wrote:My pitch on the Holton has slid to the flat side by about 20 cents over the last year. It's not the mouthpiece, and it's not leaky valves or anything like that. It's me. But now I can't seem to fix it.

It's you? Are you absolutely sure? Have you had another tuba player play your tuba with a tuner recently?

Had the same problem before. bugged the hell out of me. Here are a couple of conclusions I came to.

1. Is my horn generally cold? This alone is good for 15 cents of consistant flatness. I like to hold my cold horns in front of a forced air heat source to bring them up to temperature instead of overtaxing my lips trying to bring the pitch up while they warm up.

2. Start out each day doing long tones with the tuner in front of your face for at least 30 minutes. This helped me cause I was relaxing too much, and not supporting with the proper air speed to keep the pitch up. The tuner retrained my brain both aurally and physically to do the "Right Thing". I also learned a great deal about pitch tendencies throughout the horn and throughout temperature variances. This long tone tuner work did the most good for my problem.

3. Finally if neither of the above work, sell the horn. Not sure if this is the "best" solution, but I did sell 2 horns because I fought with keeping the pitch up. The other horn I sold because it had a stinker note or two I just could not figure out.

My pitch problems started after a took a multiple year hiatus from playing. When I started playing again I was almost exclusivelly playing alone and "relaxed" my way into a fairly well intune, although 20 cent flat, pitch center. I did not really notice it until I had an opportunity to play with a group and realized I was way off the mark.

I tried some issolated tuner work but still did not keep the pitch up. Once I made it a habit of starting out the day with long tones in front of the tuner the pitch became better that it had ever been since I started playing tuba.

Mark wrote:It's you? Are you absolutely sure? Have you had another tuba player play your tuba with a tuner recently?

Actually, I haven't, and I should.

Rick "who studied the slide this evening and ruled out the hacksaw method" Denney

WoodSheddin wrote:Had the same problem before....
1. Is my horn generally cold?
2. Start out each day doing long tones with the tuner in front of your face for at least 30 minutes.
3. Finally if neither of the above work, sell the horn.

It's a bit of catch-22, vis a vis cold instruments. If I play it enough to warm it up, my pitch concept is whacked. If I play it cold, the horn's pitch concept is whacked, heh, heh. But I don't think I can use this excuse--last night the horn was not cold when I did all my testing.

And I'd figure out a way to pull two inches out of the horn before I sold it. The sound is too good, and the scale (despite this problem) is too consistent for a big horn. And I waited too long for a tuba with these characteristics to come my way for a price I could pay at a time I could pay it.

But I think your second point is probably what's happening. I surely don't practice enough and I don't spend nearly enough of that limited practice time on long tones with a tuner. Couple your second point with your anecdote from when you started playing a lot again, and it rings true with what's happening. And that's even though I've been thinking my embouchure was strengthening up a bit as a result of a mental breakthrough over the last year or so.

Rick "who has always fought a weak embouchure" Denney

IMHO, I am thinking that since you are playing more, and since your "breakthrough" you are opening up more on the horn and relaxing, and using your air more efficiently. And your mouthpieces are not small by any stretch either. I would recommend having the slide professionally trimmed. I have had to have the slide cut (or cut it myself) on most of the horns I have owned, unless the previous owner had it done (Yamaha being an exception, those horns always require a few inches of pull.)

I chopped a good 3/4 inch off the MW2145 I had (total shortening 1 1/2 inches), and was afraid when I sold it the new owner wouldn't be able to tune it. Guess what, when he tried it on a tuner, he had the slide right about where I did. I also had to take about 1 1/2 inches off each side of the 1st valve slide to bring the D in tune.

I know many trombone players who have had to cut their horns from the 50's or 60's or even have a different tuning slide crook made. Some of this may be due to the overall increase in mouthpiece size.

FWIW, I would rather have to pull the pitch down on a horn than push it up. As long as you have enough slide left, I say cut it to where you can comfortably play in tune and then pull out when necessary.

Well, Rick, a side-effect question: with your new relaxed embouchure, is the low C on your F tuba a whole lot easier to play than it used to be?

MA

As we age, we tend to "work" less. Mr. Jacobs used to say that, when you are 20 you will have a 6 liter capacity, but when you reach 40 it will have become 4 liters. As your capacity shrinks you find other ways of compensating for the reduced air flow and are probably exhaling with less force. Fast air = high pitch, slow air = low pitch. I would suspect a change in your air flow as the culprit. You mentioned that you strain in the high register which tells me you are being very conservative with your air - perhaps too much so.

Get out the "Breathing Gym" and get some air moving. Take two inhalations (one on top of the other) at the beginning of a phrase to make sure that you are really full of air - then USE IT. This by itself should get you back to pitch. The horn doesn't change. Look to what you have changed in the body and I believe you will find that you are exhaling with less force and this may be why the pitch has gone low on you.

You can get your capacity back by working on it. My theory is that Mr. Jacobs was right - IF you get lazy in your playing and practricing. When I was 23 I was measured with a 6.5 liter capacity. A year ago I was measured at 6.25 liters and I am well over 40. If you always use it, and make yourself WORK at it, you won't lose it. I play as aggressively today as I did 30 years ago.

Remember that the only way the horn makes a noise is if you throw it against the wall (not recommended). YOU, my friend, have changed what you are doing. Get the body back to where it was and you'll be just fine.

Let me know if I can help. Call me at 1-800-348-5003, ext. 2266 if you want to kick it around a bit on Monday. Hang tough - this isn't a disaster and what we do is not hard.

That's good advice from Roger. And you are trying to logically go through all the possible problems logically. From what I have pieced together in my knowledge base, man, air support exercises are as important as playing scales. It is boring but critical as it is the foundation for low brass instruments, especially a big horn like yours. Get a Voldyne and use it daily to see if you can improve in that area.

I would certainly try to quantify, rather than qualify, the problem. Test your breathing volume, have the pitch tested by an objective source (another player). It seems logical to me that if nothing on the horn is wrong (make sure that's the case), you haven't changed mpcs, you haven't changed the climatic regime you practice in, and that their isn't a Cocker Spanial trapped in your horn, it's probably your body.

It's good to see Rick on the receiving end of advice for once, as he has been such a good sounding board for other TubeNetters.

MaryAnn wrote:Well, Rick, a side-effect question: with your new relaxed embouchure, is the low C on your F tuba a whole lot easier to play than it used to be?

MA

Yes, and it's an astute question covering an issue that occurred to me over the weekend. It so happens that my difficulties on the Holton have coincided with fairly intensive work (within the context of the time I can devote to the tuba) on the B&S F to learn how to play it. And it so happens that I usually have a quintet rehearsal on that instrument before band rehearsal. Saturday, I warmed up thoroughly on the Holton, without having touched the F for a couple of days, and after listening to some music to plan good pitches in my brain. After a ten-minute warmup, I pulled out the tuner, closed my eyes, hit a pitch, and opened my eyes to see where it was on the tuner. Everything was within 5 cents one way or another. Go figure.

Rick "now to figure out what to do about it" Denney

bloke wrote:Have asked another "reliable" player (like, maybe a tuba player in the National Symphony, etc. ) blow you horn in front of a tuner...

No. But I should. I have taken a few lessons with Gil Corella, but not with the big instrument, and not to diagnose a problem that could be the instrument. (Also it's been well over a year.) He has absolutely confirmed Roger's formula that fast air = higher pitch.

...and, like Sean says, with the instrument (truly) warmed up?

Remember that I play in a band, not an orchestra. For us, a long tacet section is six bars. I really think the horn's temperature is stable and not related to this issue, but I have given it careful consideration.

Rather than your [paraphrase] "chops falling apart", it could be that you're now "into" that instrument enough to actually have rightfully "found" the "center" - and (possibly) the "center" is low. I've not noticed any particular "consistency" from one Holton BAT to the next.

That is possible, and I actually sort of hope it to be true. Saturday, though, I was able to nail pitches and still get the sort of centered sound that is as good as I'm able to get on the instrument.

...and Lew also makes a valid observation. Amateurs rarely play "flat". Well over 90% of this group of musicians seem to follow the adage "better sharp than out-of-tune". I could easily believe that your standmate is playing 30 c. sharp "in general", which surely would clash with some of your pitches being 10-20 c. flat.

This is also true, and the main reason I didn't worry about it for a long time until the oboe player started measuring my pitches on her tuner during our warm-up sessions. It's quite true that another player in our section is battling high pitches, despite having the main slide pulled out nearly to falling out. Funny enough, I've been suggesting a much more relaxed, "let the air fall into the horn rather than pushing it" approach. Maybe I'm listening a bit too much to my own advice and we should meetin the middle, heh, heh.

Rick "accustomed to the sharp tendency more from higher instruments" Denney

Roger Lewis wrote:As we age, we tend to "work" less.

Yes, though I've compensated by moving to instruments that are more demanding (and more rewarding).

Air is always an issue with me. My capacity is quite small, despite my size (certainly less than four liters at this point). And our conductor is always seeking more connected phrasing. I find myself unable to sustain a loud pitch for the length of some notes, even when he's asking for more. I'm working on my "filling up" technique, but even then a true fill-up seems to take longer than our technical band parts allow. Mike Sanders has always recommended breathing before it is necessary so that you take smaller, more frequent breaths just to top off the tank, and I'm working on that advice since I heard him repeat it at the Army conference master class. Even so, I find I have a lot of difficulty keeping enough air in my body to sustain notes.

But during the tuning note, I'm full of air and don't face those issues. Mary Ann may be right that I'm taking my F tuba strategy to the Holton when I should not. But I don't want to go back to the old days when I worked harder and didn't get as good a sound.

Rick "who has always had air problems, but not always this problem" Denney

Rick, a couple of things. One, you really should find a way to attend Sam Pilafian's breathing class. You WILL increase your capacity and learn some stuff you don't know. Attend it twice!

I've been told that lung capacity has to do with torso length and not much else. In my experience with colleagues, that has appeared to be true. The ones with long torsos have a lot of liters.

You could go on a campaign to learn circular breathing; I'm on such a campaign but am in a "resting phase" right now....I sort of got it, i.e. I can keep bubbles going with a straw...but am still a ways off from keeping a buzz going. I think persistence will be the key, as usual. It is a coordination thing.

Note on changing instruments: I find I cannot play both euphonium and horn in the same time frame (i.e, can't play euph in band and horn in orchestra) because the air supply needed is "too close." If I use my air just right on euph...I clam the hell out of all my horn notes. I don't have this problem with tuba and horn, because the air supply needed is so different. You may be having my "euph vs horn" problem with "B&S vs Holton." I think however that if you can define the problem you can solve it, and if anybody can define it, YOU can.

MA