Focal Dystonia Discussion

[Donn]

Although I have never studied Horn, only tuba (and briefly on euphonium and bass trombone), I have very much experienced your "Horn Teaching Mystery School" within the tuba world.

Is there a better alternative, though? I mean ... quite a tangent to the thread topic, but ... taking for granted that someone like Doug Elliott can penetrate the mystery and put you on the right track in terms of physical technique with a high success rate, there would still need to be a corps of people with similar capabilities, at the disposal of young people everywhere, and ... I don't know, I'm skeptical. Personally if I'm bitter over this, it's about the time I wasted under the influence of what I think was specific, non-mysterious but misguided instruction. It bites both ways.

I don't know if university music programs study stuff like that, but if they do, an interesting master's thesis or something might be to teach kids to whistle, and to play cornet or something. Is it easier to learn to whistle? Is it easier or harder to improve someone's whistling technique? Why? Etc.

[MaryAnn]

The problem is cultural, the Mystery School approach to brass playing. The knowledge is out there, and there do appear to be different approaches that work, but you have to find the one that works for you, and it is just so rarely available. Those who DO have it figured out (how to get the correct embouchure setup for a particular player) get frustrated to the point where they just go away and shut up, which is what Doug did on this thread because I disagreed strongly about the connection between dystonia and correct embouchure setup. That disappoints me, because I am not an idiot either, and I have personal experience with both trying a wide variety of setups that I read about from the Reinhardt material, and also having dystonia. I tend to get very academic when discussing technical things, and I still am of the opinion that ANY significant change to the brain path causing dystonia will fix the dystonia. And that dystonia can and will occur even IF the person is using a correct embouchure setup for their physical type. Changes can include emotional changes, technique changes, attentional focus changes, and probably things I haven't heard of yet. To me the concept is bigger than just "you're using the wrong embouchure type for your physical makeup." I'm sorry Doug got mad and left.

[Three Valves]

Why would amateurs not get it? Their brains should be susceptible to confusion too.

Because when I go to my doctor and say "it hurts when I play beyond my two octave range or practice for more than an hour" he says "don't do that!!"

Then I go back to work at the ol' cube farm.

[Doug Elliott]

The problem is cultural, the Mystery School approach to brass playing. The knowledge is out there, and there do appear to be different approaches that work, but you have to find the one that works for you, and it is just so rarely available. Those who DO have it figured out (how to get the correct embouchure setup for a particular player) get frustrated to the point where they just go away and shut up, which is what Doug did on this thread because I disagreed strongly about the connection between dystonia and correct embouchure setup. That disappoints me, because I am not an idiot either, and I have personal experience with both trying a wide variety of setups that I read about from the Reinhardt material, and also having dystonia. I tend to get very academic when discussing technical things, and I still am of the opinion that ANY significant change to the brain path causing dystonia will fix the dystonia. And that dystonia can and will occur even IF the person is using a correct embouchure setup for their physical type. Changes can include emotional changes, technique changes, attentional focus changes, and probably things I haven't heard of yet. To me the concept is bigger than just "you're using the wrong embouchure type for your physical makeup." I'm sorry Doug got mad and left.

I didn't get mad and leave, I'm still following.

"Trying a wide variety of setups that I read about from the Reinhardt material" is NOT the same as having actual advice from someone watching you play or buzz. If you think you can learn to play better from reading about it, good luck. It's no wonder you ended up with more problems than you started with.

You would have had a much better chance of figuring it out yourself without the internet and all the ridiculous stuff you were reading on Trumpet Herald.

[timothy42b]

The problem is cultural, the Mystery School approach to brass playing. The knowledge is out there, and there do appear to be different approaches that work, but you have to find the one that works for you, and it is just so rarely available. .

At the risk of introducing another complication, I think there is an interaction with the student's preferred learning style.

I think some students are very analytical and focused on methods and mechanics.

I think other students are very intuitive and focused on the end goal.

I'm one of the first type and have found it very hard to learn using methods from the second type. I further think this is largely hard wired and we have only a limited capability of using the other style of learning. I think most teachers teach the way they learned, and that isn't always a match to the student.

One of the problems here is that some of the best performers are the natural intuitive type, and we want to play like them. But it doesn't work for all of us.

That's my theory, anyway.

[TubaZac2012]

So I never heard of focal dystonia until I was about a senior in high school. I've only meet one man who has ever had it and that was David Vining who overcame it miraculously and is playing just as good or better than before. Anyways, what do YOU think causes focal dystonia? I'm just curious what everyone thinks so I thought I would start a dialogue. Not a lot is known about it, but I'm just curious what everyone thinks.

Thanks,
Zac

[Donn]

Would you settle for reading last month's discussion?

Focal Dystonia-euphonium

[TubaZac2012]

Would you settle for reading last month's discussion?

Focal Dystonia-euphonium

Oh, sure. I literally never get on here. I'll take a look at it. I used to get on more, but am really busy now. I've made two topic post today. That's double what I've done all year.

[Donn]

- spend time playing a very different tuba

The local paper had an article on a high end symphony oboe player who had been sidelined with FD for a while. One of his recovery strategies was to have his oboe altered so it wasn't quite like a normal oboe. Didn't matter how it was different, only that it was significantly different.

[happyroman]

Would you settle for reading last month's discussion?

Focal Dystonia-euphonium

Oh, sure. I literally never get on here. I'll take a look at it. I used to get on more, but am really busy now. I've made two topic post today. That's double what I've done all year.

The search feature is your friend

search.php?keywords=dystonia&terms=all& ... mit=Search" target="_blank

[MaryAnn]

For those pre-disposed genetically to FD, they will get it in any situation where they focus on what they are doing physically, whether or not that are doing that thing correctly or not. I got it on violin (lost a career) trying to learn tennis (never got anywhere) skiing (stuck at intermediate level) brass instruments (certain range, on all of them) and I even realized recently that the reason I never got beyond a certain point in playing the piano is because my movements are herky-jerky. It is just genetic with me, as it is with some people Some can be fixed, others are going to re-acquire it unless they learn to change the way they focus on things.
What I didn't put in the last discussion, that I remembered later, that addresses the entire "using the wrong embouchure causes dystonia" argument.
I have a friend who was a VERY fine trumpet player, so good that as a grad student he was playing in the faculty quintet. He got dystonia a few years before I did. In his case, as he brings the trumpet towards his face, before it even touches his lips, his head starts wagging from side to side as if he is violently saying NO NO NO NO. Someone tell me what that has to do with embouchure.

[Doug Elliott]

If you don't understand how different embouchures correctly work (especially your own), potential pitfalls and how to avoid them, it's hard to explain how issues of "bad form" or the mechanical workings of an embouchure can stop a career. But small problems that are practically unnoticeable can be greatly magnified when under the stress of a demanding playing or practice schedule.

The biggest culprit is shifting to play different ranges. Lots of players do it; it's the easy way to accomplish something you haven't learned to do "correctly" yet. It's possible to get really good at it. You can get good at doing lots of things the wrong way.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you "never got beyond a certain point" in multiple activities. I don't call that a predisposition to FD, I call that a predisposition to ineffectively trying to figure out how to do things on your own. I've seen what you and others have done on Trumpet Herald, latching onto one far-out playing method after another, thinking you're going to learn how to play by reading about it on the internet. Did you ever have good teachers in violin, tennis, skiing, horn, piano, tuba, etc? Somehow I doubt it. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

[Donn]

This is getting kind of disagreeable.

Usually, when we talk about FD, the picture features a number of high level performing artists whose careers have been derailed, temporarily or permanently. That seems like a more illuminating way to do it, rather than focusing on bloke or MaryAnn. These artists have various symptoms, and I haven't made any real comprehensive study of it myself, but the picture I get is way beyond technique problems or fear of messing up, there's an intractable neural disorder here. With several reported remedies, but maybe some afflicted persons who have tried them all without results.

[MaryAnn]

So, how you do fix the fantastic trumpet player whose head wags back and forth before he even touches his lips with the trumpet?
Avoiding the question does not provide the answer.

The people who get on the internet to try to figure out how to play are the ones who have gone from teacher to teacher, some of them famous and well known, and not gotten any instruction that helps. Blaming them for that is bad form. If you were near me, Doug, I'd come take a lesson, but you are not near me. I'd do it just to see who is right in what portions, and I'd do it with integrity. I have no doubt you have fixed some people; what I doubt is that you understand what dystonia is, because it appears you have only seen what you have been able to fix. I'd much rather get solutions than argue, always, spent a life time not getting solutions because no matter the quantity and type of instruction, Jan Kagarice's concepts have been the very first thing that was helpful.

[MaryAnn]

- spend time playing a very different tuba

The local paper had an article on a high end symphony oboe player who had been sidelined with FD for a while. One of his recovery strategies was to have his oboe altered so it wasn't quite like a normal oboe. Didn't matter how it was different, only that it was significantly different.

I of course know about this...Alex Klein. I think his 3rd and 4th finger curl uncontrollably. He, I think, had keys modified so that he could still reach them with his curled fingers. Which of course only curl when he is playing the oboe. I'm not sure how that relates to bad teaching and bad technique, because there aren't very many ways to put your hands on an oboe.

Oh, bloke, you're implying that a person could go back to playing their regular tuba after their foray into playing a very different tuba. Alex is not able to go back to playing a regular oboe, because he has dystonia.

[Donn]

From the newspaper articles, my impression is that yes, those two fingers curled in, and the action on his new oboe has them working at a different angle -

- but the key point is that those fingers now don't curl under, don't suffer from "involuntary muscle contractions", or he still wouldn't be able to play. They did that with a normal oboe, and apparently if he were to play a normal oboe now it would come back in short order, but - for now - with this modified rig, all his fingers work normally, so he can play.

Could it be related to a technique problem? Sure ... I think the reality is, we don't know how it works and what causes it, there's just a lot of theories. So until that's cleared up, there's a chance that technique problems play a role. It's a fairly safe bet at this point, because everyone has technique problems - if we could guarantee that you can avoid the problem by having perfect technique, that wouldn't help a bit.

[Doug Elliott]

I knew a fantastic sax player who played alto, but he had very long arms and the alto forced him into a cramped wrist and elbow position. He was advised to switch to tenor which was more favorable for his arm and finger length.

If he had continued playing in a cramped position and developed problems from it, would you call that dystonia?

Maybe the oboe player had long fingers and the standard key positions were too cramped for his hands. Does that make the resulting curled fingers dystonia?

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument, and I don't know what a neurologist would say about those examples, but it seems to me that they could be classified as problems of body mechanics that then result in something worse. There are very similar "body mechanics" issues with brass playing.

I consider the head shake, which is pretty common, as an advanced fear of playing, due to long term unpredictability - a form of phobia.

[Donn]

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument, and I don't know what a neurologist would say about those examples, but it seems to me that they could be classified as problems of body mechanics that then result in something worse. There are very similar "body mechanics" issues with brass playing.

Sure - like I say, since we don't know what causes it, we can't rule that out - but we all have body mechanics problems, so does it matter, or is it only of academic interest? Are those of us with worse body mechanics issues, more likely to end up with FD?

I think the objection people have been raising here, is that it looks like if anything, it's the other way around. That the afflicted are often exceptional players who may have issues, as everyone does, but they'd have to be pretty damn small issues, to get to the position they're in when it typically strikes.

[Doug Elliott]

I see a lot of brass players, in person and by Skype, who come to me to fix their problems... "often exceptional players who may have issues" and want to fix them before they get bigger, or simply want to learn more about their own embouchure and be better teachers. Yes, some players actually do WANT to know and it benefits them greatly.

My teaching is all about simplifying everything you do, not making it more complicated. Learning how your face and body wants and needs to play low range, middle range, and high range, and putting them all together to interact into one unit. When everything makes sense mechanically, playing becomes easy and predictable. And doesn't fall apart.

[Donn]

It's great that you can improve technique that way, and I know it's widely confirmed by reports from others. Can you say the same for the link from that, to focal dystonia?

While you haven't exactly said this, your comments seem to reflect a relatively skeptical position on focal dystonia. Like it's a name that might get applied to various unrelated afflictions ... fear growing out of lack of confidence, strain from cramped position, whatever. Would it be possible to accept that on one hand, all those things are real and common issues, but on the other hand there is a distinct thing that we are calling focal dystonia that just can't be fixed by working on technique? It sure seems so, when people describe their own experience with it.