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I guess that doesn't really explain it, but I was wondering if anyone knows when Miraphone switched from using the left hand 5th valve set up to the right thumb activated set up.

I'm possibly interested in a 186 with the left hand set up, although I really don't want a 5th valve at all, but if it's an early enough example, I could settle for it and probably have it converted to thumb activated and live with that.

I was thinking the thumb system happened before the 70's, but I don't really know.

Thanks for the info, Wade. I would just love an old (pre 1971 or so) vintage 186 4V. I'll take one with 5 valves and it can be always be converted as far as left hand or thumb. Part of it is that maybe I want to return to my roots when I had a new 1972, 186 4V several years ago. Great tuba that I did everything on! We didn't know from 6/4 or F tubas back then. What the Hell did I know back then? We played what we had. Then, several companies started making horns that we asked for, I guess, mainly piston valve CC's. Cool, except many had issues that the 186 didn't have. Yeah, they addressed low range issues and some things that the 186 didn't do as well, but if you wanted a do it all tuba, the 186 was still it.

So, I already am realizing I can't do the things I used to do on tuba. Part of it is embouchure quivering **** with slow music in certain ranges. Maybe it's air related too.But, I get better at playing jazz as time moves on. Cool! I'll probably keep my 1292 for whenever. I played Lt. KiJe with the Austin Civic Orch. last night on my 1292. It's a very nice solo at home. Kudos to you guys with nerves of steel to play that in front of anyone. I played it with a nice vibrato. Anyway, I want an old 186 for an everything horn. I'll keep the 1292 and my BMB. F. My Lee Stofer Jupiter CC sousaphone is my bread and butter horn and I'm keeping that. I'm rambling after Christmas shopping and 2 glasses of wine.!! Merry Tubachristmas to all! I miss being at the NYC event. Ramble, ramble !!