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harold wrote:Is it really the instrument that is important or is in the appearance?

Sousa's band had both concert tubas and helicons with straight-up bells. A helicon with a straight-up bell is, of course, the original sousaphone.

Then, as bands sought to make recordings, the focus shifted to instrument with forward bells so they could be heard on the microphones of the day. As a result, we had recording basses and recording souaphones. Microphones improved, and everyone went back to the less direct and more general sound provided by a bell pointed up, except for sousaphones. That's why they lost their application in sit-down bands and orchestras.

And it happened at the same time that sit-down wind bands lost their market, ending up nearly exclusively in the amateur world.

Bloke has had success with his CC helicon because the bell is pointed usefully (and because he plays it beautifully). If it was a "recording sousaphone" with a forward bell, I don't think he'd have used it in that application (indeed, he wouldn't have built it that way in the first place).

But in more practical matters, I can put my Holton and my B&S in the back of my Subaru and drive to rehearsal. No way would a sousaphone have that portability.

Rick "who never played anything but a sousaphone until age 17" Denney

I think part of the reason has to do with the rise of fiberglass sousaphones in the fifties and sixties. When I started hight school in 1965, my Chicago high school had enough brass sousie parts in a heap to make up maybe 1.67 horns. When I transferred to a suburban school in 1968, it was all fiberglass sousies, about half held together with duct tape. Most of the glass jobs have the tone quality of a funnel stuck on the end of a garden hose. I may be wrong, but I think that a lot of the pro tuba players today grew up with these fiberglass beasts and, for them, this is what a sousaphone sounds like.

My dad told me a story of a tuba recital he saw at a high school in Boston, performed by Chester Schmitz right after he got the BSO position. Chester played a vast array of tubas during the concert, and for the encore he played the Carnival of Venice on the school's fiberglass sousaphone. The saddened band director could only say "Thank you, Mr. Schmitz, I was hoping to have that sousaphone replaced"

I think the sousaphone makes a wonderful solo instrument since its a visually impressive instrument, the player is in full view, and the sound projects better with the forward bell. Playing an upright tuba for a solo makes me think of Pavarotti lying down on the stage singing at the ceiling.

-Eric

As one who considers the sousaphone as my primary instrument, I can say that there is still a use for it when it comes to marching bands, be it on the street or on the field. Having a bell point upwards would greatly reduce the bass sound when it comes up in competition with the sky. That's why the recording bells or current sousas are still with us. Plus, carrying a large 30 lb. BAT tuba is hard enough. I do have lots of respect for the contra players in drum and bugle corps bands. There is one college band that still uses recording bell tubas for marching. I believe that is Jacksonville State down in Florida.

As for indoor concerts, I see no reason why a sousa can't be used. Richard Maloof, who played tuba on the Lawrence Welk show, used all kinds of tubas while playing; BAT, recording tuba, and sousaphone. It seemed to work well with him since the sounds were constant.

What I'd like to see as a sousa player is perhaps some kind of compromise whereby the bell of the sousa is bent halfway between the current 90 degree angle and the old "raincatcher" horn. Maybe something at about 45 degrees using the new quad valve system which Jupiter has created. I would love to try out that horn.

Hank74

Hank74 wrote: What I'd like to see as a sousa player is perhaps some kind of compromise whereby the bell of the sousa is bent halfway between the current 90 degree angle and the old "raincatcher" horn. Maybe something at about 45 degrees using the new quad valve system which Jupiter has created. I would love to try out that horn.

Why not just fit your sousa with a bell from a recording tuba? They're usually bent at something less than 90 degrees.

That's a possibility, but aren't the diameters of the sousa bell different from a recording tuba. I'm thinking some, if not all, might not fit.

Hank74

My 36j bell fits on my 20k beautifully. Its also a better bell. However, I've never had a reason to use it like this.
Personally, I use my 40k for alot of professional work. Why?
I like standing (but I don't like hanging a tuba in front of me). Furthermore I play in some groups where I have to stand (don't ask). Also, I play alot of music where the indirect bell up sound isn't preferable (for me anyways). Pop bands and jazz bands where all the horns are straight forward-gives me the same playing field. Buy the way, for jazz players that end up in low-roof venues-; you can't beat a recording-bell set up.

harold wrote:All the rest of the brass family - with the obvious exception of the French horn all have their bells forward in all their different playing situations.

Organs have high-compression trumpets that should point right to the cheap seats. But all the other pipes do not. Why? Because some pipes were intended to produce sound that would come to the listener from all directions, and others were intended to be directed at the listener for extreme clarity and intensity. Thinking about tuba parts leads me, with few exceptions, to the former effect rather than the latter. I don't know that many tuba player who have such good sound that it can't benefit from bouncing around the room a bit. I know mine does. Playing outdoors is the exception, of course.

Rick "who thinks tubas fill a different role than trombones in most music" Denney

Sousaphones and helicons seen to be alive and well. They definetely deserve more respect

Show up at your next TubaChristmas with something like this:

http://members.evansville.net/dschultz/projects.htm

I think sousas and bell front tubas should be used more often especially in bands where there may be only one or two tuba players in a band of 50 - 100, which is common in many high schools. Also when I play outdoor concerts with the local concert band or pops orchestra I use a bell front tuba. When I was in HS we had no concert tubas. Our guys used sousa for concert band and I always loved th sound and knew no better. The section rocked so it didn't matter much what they played. (I played trombone at the time).

ken k

harold wrote:As I remember, there was a Sousaphone in Fantasia.

I've heard (which means, I could have been fed some BS) that the sousaphone was brought out for Fantasia specifically because it was more interesting to film than an upright.

Non-musical people see a sousaphone and know exactly what it is. Plus, it lights up so much better when a red stage light is pointed at it.

the goal of this 'tuba guy' is to get through a rehearsal and have the director say "trumpets, you hear how the tuba is playing that? I want you to play it like he is doing it."

Remember, there are no answers.
You play what you want to play. Your equipment is there to serve you and help you get those notes happening the way you need them. Some players play alot of different styles on one axe. Some play alot of different tubas for one kind of music. Its your call.

I use bell fronts because they work with the kind of music I'm doing. Its not so much a volume question as it is how and when its getting to you. (just like Mr. Denney said). Most of the orchestra repetoire is written (hopefully) with the tuba-up sound concept. Even though some compositions probably would benifit from a bell-front sound, I'd wait till you bagged the job before showing up with one.

If you REALLY want to use it at an audition, make sure your packing a straight-up C as well. Be certain that the piece you used the bell-front on profits from your decision or that your decision is defendable.

As a side note, even though many sousaphones play heavenly, I think the personal objections with players is that your air intake is restricted with all that weight on your shoulder. Furthermore, a sousaphones lead-pipe concept is, lets face it, pretty funky.

harold wrote:As I remember, there was a Sousaphone in Fantasia.

Yes, on screen. Off screen, the Philadelphia Orchestra recorded the soundtrack.

It's doubtful that Donatelli(?) would have favored a sousaphone and that Stokowski would have permitted it.

Although, come to think of it, Stokowski went out on a limb frequently in regard to convention.

After being the only tuba "vs." a 70+ piece community concert band, (a good one), I asked the director how he would feel if I bought a recording bell horn. He told me, to go for it, if that is what I wanted, because in the summer they often play outside with no shell.
I bought a refurbished 20 J and brought it to rehearsal, to see how it would go. I have never brought a bell up horn since that evening. Everyone can hear the bass better. Sure I know there are some out of tune notes, but overall, the bell front horn wins. I have also had some comments about how neat the bell looks looming over the band.

manatee wrote:I bought a refurbished 20 J and brought it to rehearsal, to see how it would go.

I did that a couple of years ago, and the adjective that came from the conductor (not our usual guy) was "blunderbuss". That violated Bloke's rule of not getting mentioned, and I didn't use it again. Maybe it was me, maybe not. My beef with it was playing in tune, and playing softly.

But I never learn. This weekend, if things go as planned, I'll be bringing home an old 14K as a birthday present. I think might be a little easier to control than a 20J or a 20K.

Rick "who will be using it in the July 4 concert for sure, which is played under a tent" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:
But I never learn. This weekend, if things go as planned, I'll be bringing home an old 14K as a birthday present. I think might be a little easier to control than a 20J or a 20K.

Rick "who will be using it in the July 4 concert for sure, which is played under a tent" Denney

And one more for the stable.

Rick Denney wrote:

manatee wrote:I bought a refurbished 20 J and brought it to rehearsal, to see how it would go.

I did that a couple of years ago, and the adjective that came from the conductor (not our usual guy) was "blunderbuss". That violated Bloke's rule of not getting mentioned, and I didn't use it again. Maybe it was me, maybe not. My beef with it was playing in tune, and playing softly.

But I never learn. This weekend, if things go as planned, I'll be bringing home an old 14K as a birthday present. I think might be a little easier to control than a 20J or a 20K.

Rick "who will be using it in the July 4 concert for sure, which is played under a tent" Denney

And I thought you were determined NOT to become a tuba collector. I know, every horn has a specific purpose that can't be met any other way.

Then again, I just sent my check off to Robb Stewart to buy the Conn 28K that he has, although he's doing the valves first.

We're doing some veggie tales tunes at church in a couple of weeks for a family Sunday when the kids are up in the "Big-Church"....I'll be using the helicon instead the B&S tuba as much for sound as for visual effect.




-dm "who's next horn will be a fit for purpose King bell-front or the like" morris

........waiting for the right-one to come along.

My high school band director bought me a Conn sousie with the short stroke valves.It played like a dream and the valves were quiet and fast.
My Soviet Army tuba was upright and shoddy.My present horn,a 1940 King Eb bell front is a fine horn and I'm so glad I got it because our trio plays accoustically to small groups and with my lips being abraded away on long gigs,the bell front lets me play softer.
For larger groups,we use either our small or large P.A. system which requires me to use a SM-57 mike on a tripod boom.The bell front is easier to mike because I can see that the mike is properly aligned with the bell from where I sit and rocking to the left to blow out the water keys gets me away from the mike enough to prevent the audience from hearing that whooshing sound.
Bell front tubas rock!
www.johnreno.com