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Just out of curiosity.

You can vote for more than one option.

I had a JZ 186 clone and now have a Wessex cimbasso. From what I've seen, the quality to price ratio is great on these Chinese instruments, and my work experience with Chinese electronics manufacturing makes me think that it is only a matter of time until Chinese instrument manufacturing approaches or even exceeds that of some old world manufacturers. Jinbao/whoever may not be Foxconn, but I can attest that there is not an inherent inability to do high quality manufacturing in China. If the market demonstrates that quality is important, they'll figure it out and then they'll be unstoppable.

With that said, I do hesitate on some of the Chinese horns because I think the clones undermine incentive for innovative design work. I'd be happier if there were more original designs coming out. For example, Miraphone is cranking out interesting, and consistently great tubas, and it would suck for someone to put out a Hagen clone next year. It would suck if it was substantially as good as the original at a lower cost (undercutting Miraphone, who did the hard work here), and it would suck if the Chinese copy weren't as good and people thought that correlated to the original's performance.

On some level I must have made my peace with the issue, as I own Alexander, Hirsbrunner, B&S, and Wessex instruments, but I do think about this.

How did you manage to not mention China's Climate Change policy??

Or record on LGBTIAFLCIO issues??

Me??

I own one and I like it.

(I hope you out-troll bloke on this one...)

Three Valves wrote:How did you manage to not mention China's Climate Change policy??

Or record on LGBTIAFLCIO issues??

Me??

I own one and I like it.

(I hope you out-troll bloke on this one...)

I think you meant LGBTQIAFLCIO issues. For that there is the "other" option.

Several of my private students have purchased Chinese tubas per my recommendation. The JZ tubas sold by Baltimore Brass Company are well built, play very well in tune, have a nice sound, consistent response in all registers and cannot be beaten for their price. We are in a world market now and the Chinese are competing well.

One of the concerns I have, founded or not, is how well Chinese horns hold their value vs. ones from more traditional suppliers.

I've been very pleased with the "Chinese" tubas that I've purchased.

Ok. I'll go against everyone else's opinion and stick to my American made tubas. Just because I haven't been impressed by any Chinese horns yet. Oh, British and Swiss made too!

I would have gone Chinese,
But I just don't like the colors Tiger is offering.

My main tuba is a Kanstul which is American made. I also own a Wessex Bubbie and really like it. I would not hesitate to purchase another Wessex horn.

kmorgancraw wrote:

Three Valves wrote:How did you manage to not mention China's Climate Change policy??

Or record on LGBTIAFLCIO issues??

Me??

I own one and I like it.

(I hope you out-troll bloke on this one...)

I think you meant LGBTQIAFLCIO issues. For that there is the "other" option.

How could I be so insensitive??

I need help.

Is there a SJW that can help me??

Ok, I'll take the bait.

I can't, in good conscience, buy Chinese for the following root reasons:

- human rights violations (forced sterilization and abortion, lack of freedom of speech and religion)

- insurmountable playing field (using the results of others' R&D without paying royalties, and then producing the product with employees that are paid poverty-level wages that there will never any hope to compete against)

- polluting of the environment on an epic scale (I've been to China, and I've seen it first-hand)


There are other reasons, but they are byproducts of the above stated three.

I'd simply rather have my hard-earned dollars go elsewhere, if possible.

As a caveat (because I know there will be someone who will level the charge of "hypocrite") I actively try to avoid buying Chinese stuff, but unfortunately, sometimes it is unavoidable. In some markets, they have entirely eliminated their competition, and in others, the product may be available, but not to me (i.e., not belonging to "the guild", etc.)

Everybody loves a bargain (and so do I), and it's very tempting to buy a decent-quality tuba (keeping "on-topic") at a discount rate, but for me, there's more to it than that.

I don't think there is necessarily a "wrong" or "right" opinion on this one, as everyone has their own moral compass to follow - what bothers one person might be totally acceptable to another.

I cannot stress enough the importance of quality and quick availability of parts. Inexpensive does not necessarily mean poor quality. Eventually the smoke will clear and we will be stuck with what we are willing to settle for.

I suspect the Chinese, Indians, and others can make shovels better than the crap they sell at Lowes and Home Depot, too. However... we'll continue to get what we are willing to settle for.

I blame Nixon.

He filled those bicycle-riding Chinese characters heads with non-sense about indoor plumbing, rural electrification and private property.

Now they are driving cars, stealing our jobs and killing the planet!!

Nixon, I tell ya!!

Joe, we are in complete agreement with your view of where our country is going.

With that said, I have one question: how does patronizing a repressive, forced-collective-type government prevent us from sliding into the same sad fate? Or does it even matter?

I don't see the issue as only "idealist". In point of fact, our descent into the abyss is directly related to the American citizen's increasing financial support of the Chinese economy. The two problems are not mutually exclusive. As the trade deficit swells, the currency dwindles in value, and average Americans lose wealth and prosperity, we are ripe for adopting a totalitarian "nationalistic" government who will take away even more of our freedoms, in the interest of "security" and "protection".

Call me an altruistic idealist, but I refuse to give up. The cost of a cheaply priced Chinese import is not all in the price tag.

I didn't realize we were in the politic's section.
For the record: Chinese are people too.
Yup.
They like having work, feeding their families and taking care of them.
The issues about pollution and human rights are political. If you are not in agreement with their politics then becoming politically active in whatever way you think best might be more efficient.
It is my opinion that personally boycotting their brass industry will not achieve this goal.
Of course, not wanting to support any industry that exploits their workers or pollutes the planet is very valid. But why only take it out on the Chinese?
How many child laborers were involved in making any of our cell phones?
How many South Africans were exploited mining diamonds for our wedding ring? (Maybe even the needle on our record players)?
Whanna talk coffee beans?
To reiterate, I respect the actions of people that boycott these evil businesses. I'm not sure what the motives are for only singeling out the Chinese brass industry.

pjv wrote: The issues about pollution and human rights are political. If you are not in agreement with their politics then becoming politically active in whatever way you think best might be more efficient.

Yes, something more practical, like becoming active in Chinese politics and running for office there.

pjv wrote:
It is my opinion that personally boycotting their brass industry will not achieve this goal.

My "goal" is to refrain from supporting totalitarian regimes that repress their populations and have ill will toward my country. What's yours?

pjv wrote:Of course, not wanting to support any industry that exploits their workers or pollutes the planet is very valid. But why only take it out on the Chinese?

I don't, but that's beyond the scope of this particular discussion.

pjv wrote:How many child laborers were involved in making any of our cell phones?

I don't know. Show me where to buy one, and I will.

pjv wrote:How many South Africans were exploited mining diamonds for our wedding ring? (Maybe even the needle on our record players)?

I don't have a diamond ring, or a hi-fi phonograph (and neither does my wife).

pjv wrote:Whanna talk coffee beans?

Whanna talk "fair trade" coffee beans (which I buy)?

pjv wrote:To reiterate, I respect the actions of people that boycott these evil businesses. I'm not sure what the motives are for only singeling out the Chinese brass industry.

Thank you for respecting my actions and opinions; however, if you'd take the time to read my post a little more carefully, you'd learn that I'm NOT singling out any particular industry, but an ideology, and that I made my "motives" abundantly clear.

pjv wrote:I didn't realize we were in the politic's section.
For the record: Chinese are people too.

I only meant to ask if some had politically related issues dealing with purchasing Chinese built tubas, which is a big issue for many. I realize that Chinese people are people, which is why my second question is about the welfare of Chinese people. My poll questions are not meant to convey an opinion, I was just curious what the sticking points in buying these tubas is for people at this point.

My motivation to come up with a poll originally was that I was most curious about working conditions, pay, level of training and retention in these instrument factories. I wanted to see if anyone else thought about the same thing, or what else they thought about when purchasing.

I was really hopeful that perhaps those that have visited these factories, that frequent these boards, could shed some light on the people behind building these instruments. Are they paid at a level that allows them to live in relative comfort? Are health and safety a priority in the factory? How much training do these workers receive before they put my tuba together? Are a large number of the workers highly experienced or is there a high level of turnover? When you visit a factory, is your freedom to take pictures limited? Are you discouraged from sharing your opinions about what you've seen in the factory?

So yeah, in my head it started with one area of interest and then I thought, lets see what others are thinking about.

Stryk wrote:Is there a good American Made tuba anymore?

Under let's say 4,500.00??

No.

kmorgancraw wrote:

I was really hopeful that perhaps those that have visited these factories, that frequent these boards, could shed some light on the people behind building these instruments. Are they paid at a level that allows them to live in relative comfort? Are health and safety a priority in the factory? How much training do these workers receive before they put my tuba together? Are a large number of the workers highly experienced or is there a high level of turnover? When you visit a factory, is your freedom to take pictures limited? Are you discouraged from sharing your opinions about what you've seen in the factory?

Wessex has posted factory photos in the past and may still be up at his web/facebook page.

It looked like a spacious, modern facility to me.

No prisoner or child labor that I could ascertain.