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What is a DMA degree and how does it differ from a PhD? In music, specifically. I see people getting DMA degrees and there seems no relation to a PhD degree.

In broad terms:

DMA: Doctor of Musical Arts; performance/composition based

PhD: Doctor of Philosophy; more academic/research based; music theory, music ed and music history degrees

It also extends to the master's level: for instance, I am currently getting my MA in music theory. If I had pursued tuba, I would be getting an MM.

DMA = Doesn't Mean Anything
PHD = Piled High and Deep

Is there such thing as an EdD in music?

bort wrote:DMA = Doesn't Mean Anything
PHD = Piled High and Deep

Is there such thing as an EdD in music?

Yup: https://coe.uga.edu/academics/degrees/e ... -education" target="_blank

In the academic world it breaks down like this,

DMA no dissertation, performance instead

EdD dissertation, but based on someone else's research, you either redo the same research or make a slight change to the research.

PhD dissertation based on new research.

In academia the PhD is looked at as the top type of degree than the EdD and then the DMA.

*

bloke wrote: ok...if you don't believe, me google it, @$$h0L3$ ...but yeah: the D.D. thing is more like the DMA thing...a degree in "doing" rather than "researching".

The D.D. is honorary. The analogy in the music/arts world is the D.F.A. (h.c.). In other words, he gave, or raised, a bunch of money for the school. Or something like that.

The Ph.D. is always more or less earned, but, like the DMA, they are not created equal.

There are many professional designations in my (non music) industry and there are many alphabet soups following peoples names.

I gave myself;

Three Valves, TSMNSW

(This Shite Makes No Sense Whatsoever)

bort wrote:DMA = Doesn't Mean Anything

Didn't Make the Audition.

Practice versus academic degree choices are common in all fields. In engineering, there are Master and Doctor of Engineering degrees, but one would face real difficulty getting a tenured faculty position with those degrees. The main difference between those and MS and PhD degrees is the thesis and dissertation. My MS-Engineering degree required 24 hours of coursework plus a quality thesis (which counted for six or nine credit hours, depending on how long it took), while the ME degree required 30 hours of coursework and a "project" that provided no credit hours beyond being required for graduation.

From an academic perspective, I would expect the author of a dissertation to be the world's foremost expert on that particular topic (which may, of course, be quite narrow) by the time the degree is conferred. For a practice degree, I would expect a level of advanced competence in practice appropriate to the degree.

Given that most college music programs are either education or performance-oriented, it seems like a DMA is usually sufficient to gain a tenured academic gig on the performance side, but getting that gig usually requires some significant playing experience, either as a soloist, in a well-known chamber group, or in a professional orchestra. It seems as though those who get graduate degrees on the education side seek education degrees rather than music degrees, or they seek performance degrees with the knowledge that it won't help them get promoted within the education system, but might help them get side gigs or build a teaching studio on the side. Or, it might help them make the transition from high-school teaching to college teaching.

Rick "whose niece is an adjunct at three colleges with a DMA" Denney

russiantuba wrote:

Northernlb wrote:In the academic world it breaks down like this,

DMA no dissertation, performance instead

This is an incorrect statement overall. I had to do both, several schools require both. Some only require the recitals or a couple of lecture recitals, but many DMA programs require the document in addition to the performance requirements.

James, I looked at a successful (and excellent) DMA project at the school you went to (and you may know who I'm talking about--she was there at approximately the same time you were), but it wasn't anything like a doctoral dissertation for an academic scientific degree. It was much more like a "project" paper for an engineering practice degree (Doctor of Engineering), meant to demonstrate mastery of a topic. That's appropriate in music--people don't go into music to build theory, nor do universities make much money on research grants in music the way they do in engineering, but I would have expected a PhD dissertation at that school to involve a greater amount of research leading not only to mastery of that topic, but also to have pointed a bright light significantly into the darkness of what had been unknown before the dissertation was written. The project I saw did some of that, but I would hope a PhD program would have required more.

Rick "a practitioner with a strong research background" Denney

Michael Bush wrote:

bloke wrote: ok...if you don't believe, me google it, @$$h0L3$ ...but yeah: the D.D. thing is more like the DMA thing...a degree in "doing" rather than "researching".

The D.D. is honorary. The analogy in the music/arts world is the D.F.A. (h.c.). In other words, he gave, or raised, a bunch of money for the school. Or something like that.

The Ph.D. is always more or less earned, but, like the DMA, they are not created equal.

A Doctor of Divinity is not an honorary degree. Most church-sponsored university programs have "Divinity" programs where one can matriculate to the doctoral level. I knew a seminary professor who had earned a BA, a Master of Theology, and a Doctor of Theology (similar to a Divinity degree), but that seminary asked him to earn a PhD before they would promote him, and he went to Switzerland to earn a PhD in theological studies. I was surprised he didn't earn an advanced degree in ancient Hebrew, which he was quite good at.

An honorary degree is usually called something like a Doctor of Literary Letters for someone who is famous because of what they have written (in whatever field), with the appendage honoris causa. No, honorary degrees should not be listed as credentials (but they can be listed as honorary degrees), and if I see one in a resume I'm immediately annoyed.

Rick "who knows a few doctors of divinity, all of whom prefer to be called by their first names" Denney

We're far off topic here, but I assure you every Doctor of Divinity degree awarded in memory in the US or Canada by an ATS accredited institution has been granted honoris causa. As you can see, the ATS does not approve it or have standards for it.

You are right that there are earned, accredited doctoral degrees in theological disciplines, but the D.D. isn't among them.

And I likewise prefer my first name.

Michael Bush wrote:We're far off topic here, but I assure you every Doctor of Divinity degree awarded in memory in the US or Canada by an ATS accredited institution has been granted honoris causa. As you can see, the ATS does not approve it or have standards for it.

You are right that there are earned, accredited doctoral degrees in theological disciplines, but the D.D. isn't among them.

And I likewise prefer my first name.

Sure enough. Did this change in the last 50 years or so?

I see they have standards for the Master of Divinity and Doctor of Ministry degrees. Makes me think the latter was the name they came up with to avoid having to work around all sorts of unaccredited degree mills, to distinguish between what used to be bona fide DD degrees and mailorder DD degrees.

Also, the seminary with which I'm most familiar has changed its Th.D. degree to a Ph.D. degree. Interesting.

Rick "pretty sure this is not where Mary Ann wanted to go" Denney

oh I didn't want to go anywhere in particular. Some time ago, in a place I won't mention, I observed the final whatever-it-was that included an analysis of a piece of music with a particular focus, and also a performance of a not terribly difficult piece that went well. The person was awarded the DMA degree, and was getting it to remain in a specific, already-acquired job, for which the person was well suited. What astonished me was that the difficulty of the analysis of the piece reminded me of an undergraduate level engineering course, even maybe a lower level one. I couldn't believe this particular degree (I am NOT commenting on anyone's DMA that is here!!!!) had a D in it. So I asked about the difference. I had thought it would have the same intellectual requirements as the PhD. Apparently it has a different purpose. Thanks. I guess they have to have something that puts letters after people's names to identify that they have done certain types of study and work.
I'm only familiar really with what was at IU back when I was a violin major there....I was enrolled in the BM program (performance major,) and those who "only" wanted to be performers (no desire for an academic degree) could go for the PC (Performer's Certificate.) Someone I went to high school with ended up teaching trumpet at IU and I commented that he must have a PhD. He said he was lucky to have gotten his bachelor's, but in my mind he certainly deserved that position he had attained as faculty.

Rick Denney wrote:
Sure enough. Did this change in the last 50 years or so?

That's around the right time frame for the beginning of the D.Min. The first ones were awarded in the early 1970s. What the motivation was I couldn't say.

Rick Denney wrote:A Doctor of Divinity is not an honorary degree.

Depends on the country and the theological tradition.

In the UK and Ireland, a D.D. is an academic, post-doctoral (Ph.D./D.Phil.) degree, whereas in the US, a D.D. (referred to in religious circles as "didn't do it") is almost exclusively conferred honoris causa: Rev. Billy Graham, for example, holds a D.D. from UNC Chapel Hill, despite his highest earned degree being a B.A. (Wheaton College), and Martin Luther King, Jr. held D.D.s from a number of institutions, including, inter alia, Chicago Theological Seminary and Boston University. In the Catholic Church, bishops are conferred a D.D. upon ordination to that office.

While the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada, the Association for Biblical Higher Education, and Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools continue to recognize and accredit the B.D. and M.Div. degrees, none recognize or accredit the D.D.

As I stated before a DMA has no dissertation, yes maybe a research paper is written for some DMA's, but you have to realize there is a big difference between writing a research paper and writing a dissertation. To many differences to go into here, but if you are thinking of getting this type of degree, realize the degrees are looked at in the academic world in very different ways and a PhD is viewed as better than others types of degrees.

PHD = Professor of Harley Davidson


Jeff "out in the garage" Benedict

MaryAnn wrote:What astonished me was that the difficulty of the analysis of the piece reminded me of an undergraduate level engineering course, even maybe a lower level one. I couldn't believe this particular degree (I am NOT commenting on anyone's DMA that is here!!!!) had a D in it. So I asked about the difference. I had thought it would have the same intellectual requirements as the PhD. Apparently it has a different purpose.

Yes. If you require the kind of analytical aptitude an engineer needs, at best you'll get engineers when you wanted performer/composers.

An anecdote along the side:

I have a natural science background but also got to see the inside of a landscape architecture program. This is a design field, a kind of work that's bit hard to describe, similar to visual art in a way - but it isn't art in the sense of personal expression, and of course it's much more rigidly constrained by functional requirements, and in the end, not many people have what it takes to do it well.

It also overlaps a little with civil engineering - they learn to do grading plans, though in our jurisdiction anyway they can't sign them, and I imagine the object is really just familiarity with grading plans. The instructor who was responsible for that course work included some remedial optional instruction on fractions. She had worked out a sort of visual diagrammatic approach that she'd probably seen used elsewhere in the instruction of landscape architecture students, who sure respond to diagrams but were in some cases helpless in the face of a fraction. This was a five year professional program.

My impression was that spelling aptitude was also much lower than average, characteristically, and it would be easy to conclude that these individuals met a pretty low intellectual standard. But their design aptitude also resided between their ears, i.e. intellectual. That's where their professional competence would be proven in the end, and again, it's an exceptional faculty that you can't get from reading books or anything.

I expect music performance and composition is somewhat similar - actually my impression is that stereotypically musicians come off much better in terms of literacy and mathematical abilities, but anyway it is somewhat immaterial to their professional competence.

(PS on the grading plans - the instructor was teaching that wrong, having at some point learned a misconception about storm rainfall charts that conflicted with reality and with textbook drain pipe sizing.)