TubeNet

Hi there,
The short version of my Long story is I'm returning to the tuba world after not playing consistently for 10 years (I had a brief sousa gig several years ago, but "gig" is really an exaggeration). I really want to relearn on a CC. I studied on a 186-5V CC in college and I still have the C fingering patterns burned into my brain and fingers... plus I see myself potentially jamming with some guitar, etc. I live in NYC, so I'm looking for a compact horn that won't swallow the apartment, I can easily lug on the subway, and would be good for standing like street bands and Tuba Xmas. I've narrowed my search to these options that are actually available and in my budget:

1. Used Yamaha YCB-621s @ Tuba Exchange - heard great things about this model and started on a Yamaha, plus by teacher's main horn was the F version and he could fill a room! Only concern is the price: 5.5-6K seems like going rate for well-loved used one. That's a tough pill to swallow after reading stories of TubeNet folks finding them for 1/2 that only a few years ago.
2. Used Kanstul 902-5C @ Brass Arc - love the addition of the 5th valve and being made in the US. Played a 4/4 Kanstul in college when my horn was in the shop and I remember enjoying it, and I heard this company only got better. My concern is the wrap size; it LOOKS like a small F tuba. I cannot find a single picture or video (except 1 zoomed-in YouTube video) of anyone playing this model to determine if it's big enough match my 6'1" height. Will I have to use a block sitting down; will I overload the horn when I get my chops back?
3. Kanstul 90 - this one, though 4/4, seems compact and more widely available. I found 2 deals if I want to stretch my budget a little. Is this compact enough to meet my needs? Worth the extra 2K? I seems overkill for my needs, but I love the specs and I'm very smitten with this brand.
4. Big Mouth Brass J-835SP18 - I'm most intrigued by this option. Richard said this is his last one available and on paper it seems like the winner: 3/4 size, 18" bell, silver plate, 5 valves (I educated myself on the dependent 5th valve; works for me!). Similar to the 3/4 Kanstul, I can't find and pictures or video of anyone playing one to guage size and tone. Although these pups are made in China (is that right?), I heard nothing but positive anecdotes around here. Any feedback in context to the above?

FYI - I'm not interested in going back to Miraphone. Nothing against them. I just want something different, and piston valves. Lastly, I know I'm setting myself up for the "go try horns first" advice. I know it's good advice, but the reality is literally no store in the greater NYC area has anything close to what I'm looking for. Actually aside from the B&S showroom, literally no store in the city even has a CC. I've been looking for over a year and mail-order seems like the way to go (and duck sales tax). The above horns are located in CA or NC, so I'd much rather pay shipping to return rather than spending the gas/tolls/TIME it would take to go out of state.

Sorry for the novelization and thanks in advance for the help!!

The best and most portable CC tuba I've ever played is the new Kanstul with the screw on bell. I played it at their factory and I loved it. If I was still traveling and playing a CC I would own one, but neither one is happening right now. In my days on the New York City subway, I wanted a yamaha 621 and instead owned a Weril copy. It was everything that I needed for a portable CC. I see them used sometimes, and folks who care more about the market than I do may know where to get one.
From my own experience in New York, a small tuba in a bag is actually small, but at a certain point, a tuba in a case is about the same size as any other tuba in a case, and I stopped using gig bags for tubas on the subway after a while, and then I sold my small Weril.

Thanks, Arnold! 902-5C: That's the dream horn, I think. Still curious to see the scale in context of the 90 4/4 or played by an adult person.

Also curious to learn more about the BMB referenced above. Intrigued.

Thanks!!! Thanks to Matt's help, Eastman is on the list... Kanstul 3/4 might be off. Besides Matt's sage advice, the 3/4 at Brass Ark was sold. I tried calling Kanstul about tracking one down, no luck... at least not yet. Their one sales guy is out so the entire sales operation is offline!

The Kanstul 902 is quite small. Call it 5/8 or 11/16. (Just in case we can use a little more ambiguity in these fractions. )

FWIW, The Kanstul 90 is very similar in size to the King 2341. One of the guys in DCCB (where I play on Thursday nights) has one.
I'm not sure I'd call that a 'small' horn, but it isn't tall like a Miraphone 186. It is however much heavier than my TE tuba.

I suppose the same could be said for the Eastman CC (since it's close to the size of the Conn 56J), but I've never seen the Eastman CC in person.

Edit for clarity - This post was in response to:

BrooklynBass wrote:Still curious to see the scale in context of the 90 4/4 or played by an adult person.

Of the horns I'm mentioning here, the only one I haven't held in person is the Eastman CC. The King and Kanstul are about the same size and shape, with minor differences. It's been a while since I've held a Conn (I don't play CC), but it's almost exactly the same size and shape as the King. If you've seen one of these, then you can have a good idea how big the others are.

The Eastman is looking good right now and still considering Kanstul 90 if I can find a deal. 902 is out. I think that thing would look and feel like a euph on my tall, lanky figure, and I heard it has some dangerous right hand ergonomics that would not fare well for my already-grindy wrists.

There's a nice looking PT-4 in the classifieds right now too. So many options!

So, it's between the 621 at TE, Eastman, PT-4, or 90. Hmmmmmm

Are you planning on taking this on the subway or trains? The Eastman is a very nice horn, but it has a wide bell. Personally I've always found it easier to lug a horn on mass transit with a bell no wider than 17.5 in. Just something to think about. Dillon's would be worth the trip - to not only try horns but to see how they are physically for you (not only playing) but carrying around as well. Plus Matt has great insight and really will make sure you get a horn that is right for you.

Get another 186. Joe Exley does pretty good getting around town with his.

In terms of portability, the Yamaha is king. I have the F version, but I carried it into a theme park for a whole season, dragging it on its built-in wheels. The case is small enough to pull onto a subway in New York if you are not traveling during the peak, but it stands on its end easily and if you need to take to stairs, it's not heavy. This is the only cased tuba that I don't think will cause you to be hated by other subway riders, and even backpack gig bags are more intrusive in crowds (because people don't realize it's there and spin around, mashing it into someone's face). I bought my Yamaha in 1991 and still carry it in its original plastic case when I use it. The only warning about the case is that it is not a flight case, and won't stand up to baggage-handling gorillas.

Rick "the 621 C served Daellenbach for very many years, and he used the plastic case on airplanes" Denney

This is the horn I'm talking about. http://www.bethmitchelltubastudio.com/B ... _TUBA.html" target="_blank

bloke wrote:I've been biting my tongue for the entire thread re: the Yamaha 3/4 C tuba (because I might end up having to sell one again someday, and internet posts last forever), but here goes:

avoiding expressing my own opinions re: playability...

YFB-621 - easiest to sell
YBB-621 - second easiest to sell
YCB-621 - third easiest to sell

Check. But, as I said, it didn't bother Daellenbach much. But I would rather play the 621 C than the little screw-bell Kanstul, as long as we are extrapolating from our own personal impressions.

Rick "who thinks the C is easier to manage than the Bb" Denney

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:This is the horn I'm talking about. http://www.bethmitchelltubastudio.com/B ... _TUBA.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

OMG this is the coolest thing I've seen in a long time. I'm emailing Jack about this right now!

Rick Denney wrote:

bloke wrote:I've been biting my tongue for the entire thread re: the Yamaha 3/4 C tuba (because I might end up having to sell one again someday, and internet posts last forever), but here goes:

avoiding expressing my own opinions re: playability...

YFB-621 - easiest to sell
YBB-621 - second easiest to sell
YCB-621 - third easiest to sell

Check. But, as I said, it didn't bother Daellenbach much. But I would rather play the 621 C than the little screw-bell Kanstul, as long as we are extrapolating from our own personal impressions.

Rick "who thinks the C is easier to manage than the Bb" Denney

I'd be interested to know where anyone has played the Kanstul. I played it at their factory, and I played a cobbled together BBb that was not ready to sell, although also amazing. That CC horn really is the best small horn I've ever played by far. It lined up on my tuner and put out a lot of sound. At the time I checked it out, I was a year into a tour and had road chops on BBb, so my CC playing wasn't current, but this horn was easy and fun to jump right in and play. When Beth Mitchell played it for me (her playing wiped the floor with mine), it sounded even better. I have a hard time being outwardly excited by something that I don't own, but as I've stated, I don't need a CC, and I'm not currently touring. As for the Yamaha CC, my favorite player in the world growing up (Bob Stewart), and one of my favorites now uses that horn, I have nothing against it, and as I said I used the Weril copy when I couldn't find a Yamaha for sale when I needed a small CC. The Kanstul has a bigger bell, and the screw on part might make it feel like it can take more air without breaking up. The negative of the Kanstul for me is that it starts to get almost as big as the Matt W tuba at Dillon's which is really a career horn if you want it to be. But, the suitcase makes it amazing for touring and you don't have to bring an amp like you might with the Yamaha.

There is also the 621 CC clone to throw in the mix....

http://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/store ... ston-tuba/" target="_blank

bisontuba wrote:There is also the 621 CC clone to throw in the mix....

http://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/store ... ston-tuba/

Those are not half bad little tubas. I had one I got from Tom McGrady for a short time when I thought I would need it. After a little attention from bloke to get one of the valves to quit sticking, it was a very enjoyable little horn. Fits perfectly in the above-praised Yamaha case as well.

Guys, Rich Barth of Big Mouth Brass is so close to selling me on a tricked out J835 3/4 5-valve with a custom 18" bell. It's got a .734 bore (and silver plate!). On paper, it's everything I want and more at the right price. Like Eastman/Matt, I've heard nothing but glowing reviews about BMB/Richard. It really seems like this little "big" tuba will let me eat my cake and eat it too. I'm just stressed about buying sight unseen (Rich was very helpful on the phone though).

For the same price I'm also considering a new Eastman & used PT4P. The Kanstuls are all out... too expensive (Flying Tuba is $13.5K!!!!!).

I'm deciding that the BMB trumps the Yamaha, so final options:
1. BMB above
2. New Eastman CC 4/4
3. Used B&S 4/4

Home stretch... any final insight would be awesome!!

Big mouth brass has a great reputation. I was a B&S player for years and my opinion of them is very high. I feel like they're tuba's designed to be played by professionals. Their valves are great, and the right hand stretch is why I stopped playing them. The Jim Laabs looks really interesting too. I think they all may be winners. The price you quoted on that Kanstul is a lot more than I remember thinking they were.

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:Big mouth brass has a great reputation. I was a B&S player for years and my opinion of them is very high. I feel like they're tuba's designed to be played by professionals. Their valves are great, and the right hand stretch is why I stopped playing them. The Jim Laabs looks really interesting too. I think they all may be winners. The price you quoted on that Kanstul is a lot more than I remember thinking they were.

Right hand stretch? Referring to BMB or B&S?

Jack K said the flying tubas are in short supply due to the Navy Band eating them up. The case is specifically engineered which jacks up the price (no pun intended).

BrooklynBass wrote:

ArnoldGottlieb wrote:Big mouth brass has a great reputation. I was a B&S player for years and my opinion of them is very high. I feel like they're tuba's designed to be played by professionals. Their valves are great, and the right hand stretch is why I stopped playing them. The Jim Laabs looks really interesting too. I think they all may be winners. The price you quoted on that Kanstul is a lot more than I remember thinking they were.

Right hand stretch? Referring to BMB or B&S?

Jack K said the flying tubas are in short supply due to the Navy Band eating them up. The case is specifically engineered which jacks up the price (no pun intended).

I'm referring to the right hand stretch on a B&S, but it might be the same on all of them. I'd probably just get a rotary B&S if I wanted one. But people play them and they're unbelievable. I've had some injuries due to sports, bass playing, and motorcycle crashing that made the stretch a little more than I wanted to do on some days. Mostly they're great, but as I get older I like plug and play more and more.