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Interesting, I just played this at an audition yesterday. To me it made no sense to try to play the quarter-note C at ff and dim to p; there just isn't enough time for that to work well. I took it to mean that the G starts at ff and dims so that by the time you play the C it is p.

Looking at the score, he has the brass all playing piano, and the rest of the orchestra at fortissimo, so I would play it exactly as written, as I believe that Mahler has the brass section fade out at the end of the chorale to make way for the rest of the orchestra to play the next section. So my interpretation would be to diminuendo on the G and hit the C at piano.

Tim

I agree with Mark's and timayer's assessment of the dynamic markings.

This discussion couldn't be more timely for me, as I am playing it tomorrow afternoon in a performance. Thank you, bloke. What prompted you to inquire about this? Is IRIS performing the Mahler 2?

Mahler was always very specific about what he wanted and marked his scores to refelct that. I would say stick to exactly what is written on the page, unless a conductor or audition committee askes for something else.

bloke wrote:

Mahler was always very specific about what he wanted and marked his scores to refelct that. I would say stick to exactly what is written on the page, unless a conductor or audition committee askes for something else.

Thank-you Gary, but if you had this particular printed excerpt in front of you, it would be apparent that the marking in question is ambiguous.

bloke "who plays this excerpt in the manner that the majority of respondents have described"

Bloke old chap...I do actually have the part in front of me. I'm just saying that although the rest of the orchestra may be marked with a crescendo through to rehearsal #11, the entire trumpet/low brass section, as Tim mentioned, are marked piano at 11. I tend to think this is what Mahler intended rather than that it might be a printer's error. This is merely my take on this issue. Out of curiosity, I also went back and listened to the CSO/Solti recording. They played that passage exactly as printed. Hey...if its good enough for Solti, Herseth, Jacobs and company, its good enough for me!

With all the available literature on Mahler, perhaps a scholar such as de la Grange or Blaukopf has addressed these kinds of issues somewhere in their books on his life. I may have to check it out at the NY Performing Arts Library. I'll let you know if I find anything!

The easiest way to check any question regarding Mahler is to check the score, but not just any score.

Universal Edition Mahler scores are widely considered the only real source for anyone who cares about authenticity, and with good reason; the are published in partnership with the Internationalen Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft, Wien. In other words, by the time the scores are printed, all items of any question have been researched by Mahler scholars and addressed in the printing. Particulars are addressed in the "Revisionsbericht" ("Revisions Report") in the forward, and the source (manuscript, handwritten corrections in Mahler's scores, early/first editions, etc.) for the correction is noted.
In short, if you have a question about a Mahler part, skip the research; it's been done and can be found in the Universal Edition score.

Unfortunately, I only have UE scores to 3,4, & 5, so I can't address the question at hand, but hope to save some time for anyone looking.

FWIW, Mahler orchestrated, many times in many works, in a manner that's now easily accomplished on a mixing board, i.e., panning, cross-fading, etc. Just opening the score for No. 4, p.35 at random, the entire orchestra is at ff with a continuing crescendo, while trumpet 1 has a decrescendo. Page 21: the tutti bassoons have a full measure of sixteenths; the 'celli have the exact same line; the bsns. are a full ff for the whole measure but the 'celli are ff with a diminuendo.
Mahler's orchestrations are ridiculously detailed, more from the point-of-view of a composer who conducted and was absolutely adamant at times that the piece should sound the same no matter who performed it. In some ways, it also shows his sentiment that very few people would understand the music as he did, and scored it so nothing would be left to chance. Many dynamic markings in his scores merely parallel the inherent strong-weak tendencies in the measure, but he marked them none-the-less, just to be sure. At times, he couldn't go two measures at a time without putting some other direction in the score.

Short story long, without seeing the UE score, it's logical that the issue at 11 is printed exactly as Mahler intended.

Well, using the Universal score makes it easy. (at least in the edition in front of me) nr.11 starts on an new page. The marking on the beginning of the measure is p, placed before the C, and the dim is on the page before.

wnazzaro wrote:Mark f.d. conductors: The cresc. lasts up to the entrance of the strings and woodwinds and must be very powerful; the conductor must slow the tempo for a long time, until full strength is reached. With entrances of the strings and woodwinds hold back the brass instruments, around the entrance of those so as to not "cover."

Quite good, except for the "for a long time" which is not necessary and may be skipped. "So lange ... bis" really only means "until".

A literal translation of the sentence would be:
The conductor must hold back the tempo until full strength is reached.