Does anyone recognize this model sousaphone?

[scottw]

http://tinypic.com/2mpn8glv" target="_blank

This horn was donated to my band. We can't use it but would like to turn it into a useful instrument for the school that gave it to us. We would sell it and give the school the money to buy what they want.
It is labelled Carl Fischer, NY on the bell. Bell is 24+ inches, throat is around 6". I have yet to play it--tomorrow night--to see if it is Eb or Bb. It is not big, but I suspect Bb. It is in surprisingly good condition, with few dents. The neck was twisted pretty good, though. I haven't yet found a serial #, but Horn-u-copia lists Fischer manufacturing sousies between 1880--1926. It may be a stencil, too. Does anyone recognize it?
Thanks!

[TheGoyWonder]

Carl Fischer was a brand for import and/or export, don't know if they actually made anything too.
Backwards bell tenons suggests Holton.

[Rick Denney]

Carl Fischer owned the York label and factory from 1941 to 1971, or something like that. During that time, the Grand Rapids plant made student-quality instruments. This could be one of those.

Rick "doesn't really look like a hundred-year-old sousaphone" Denney

[scottw]

Carl Fischer owned the York label and factory from 1941 to 1971, or something like that. During that time, the Grand Rapids plant made student-quality instruments. This could be one of those.

Rick "doesn't really look like a hundred-year-old sousaphone" Denney

That fits with my thought that it is from the 40's or 50's.Do you know of some indicator on the horns of that era that might pin the ID down?

[Rick Denney]

Carl Fischer owned the York label and factory from 1941 to 1971, or something like that. During that time, the Grand Rapids plant made student-quality instruments. This could be one of those.

Rick "doesn't really look like a hundred-year-old sousaphone" Denney

That fits with my thought that it is from the 40's or 50's.Do you know of some indicator on the horns of that era that might pin the ID down?

Compare it with this Grand Rapids sousaphone (a York budget-brand) that Art Hovey sold a while back:

http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/sousaphone.html



The one you picture is missing that long brace from the third valve branch to the leadpipe, and yours looks as those a replacement was installed to take it to the upper bow instead (and that one is certainly ex-factory). But the original flange on the third valve branch is still there. Some of the braces look Yorkish, the pulls on the slides look Yorkish, and the overall layout is the same. But there are differences (thumb ring, bell tenon, bell brace), so who knows?

By deduction, though, if it's post-war, it's hard to imagine that Carl Fischer would buy a sousaphone from another factory on which to put their stencil, given that they already owned a factory.

And I think it's post-war. The engraving, for example, seems that way--not really the ornate pre-war style.

Rick "not seeing the hallmarks of other sousaphone makers, either" Denney

[scottw]

When we list it, I'm going to say that it is probably Fischer, NY made, possibly using generic parts similar to York and Holton's. The reverse bell ring is a little puzzling, though.
I will say that for a sousaphone that old, there are surprisingly few dents, especially on the bell. Someone took good care of it.
Anyone want to buy it?

[scottw]

There doesn't seem to be any serial number or anything on the valves, although there is a lot of crud from long-term storage in someones attic or basement. The only mark we can find is on the bell. And, yes, I know about the for sale section.

[roweenie]

The greenish color combined with no serial has me guessing a czech clone. I have a cornet with similar colors, no serial, and cloned from a york that the trumpet forums kindly gave me those clues.

+1

The longer braces appear to be "one piece" (not "two brace sockets and a brass rod").

It does appear to be somewhat "York inspired".....

[Uncle Markie]

Non-expandable braces (e.g., not two sockets and a tube between them) is a hallmark of European instrument makers. American manufacturers of instruments - like American auto manufacturers, etc. streamlined production costs by using common parts bins to produce their horns, and that meant widespread use of expandable braces, valve caps common to several models, ferrules common to several models, etc. The expense is in the set-up; once done you just keep knocking out the parts. Model-specific parts run up costs. In Euro stuff from decades ago that usually is an indicator of inefficient manufacturing methods, or reluctance to adopt American-style methods.

It really looks like a student- level York, but Fischer imported Bessons and some Czech instruments under their stencil. You might check to see if the threads are metric on the valve barrels and caps. That would be a pretty sure way of ID-ing an import.

Mark Heter