E

[one.kidney]

D

[Biggs]

UC doesn't have a wrestling team, so that should tell you all you need to know about what kind of place that is.

[THE TUBA]

Which school has the best practice rooms? You know, seeing how that's where you'll be spending most of your time for the next four years...

But seriously, both CCM and IU have excellent music programs and excellent tuba studios and excellent tuba teachers. Either one would be a solid choice by looking at the numbers. What you should do is consider beyond the stats... which "feels" like a better fit for you?

Some things to consider:

Where do you feel most at home? Which is closer to home (or further away, if you're into that sort of thing)? Which is cheaper? (going $xx,xxx into debt isn't always advisable) Which is giving you the better scholarship? I know you said money wasn't an issue, but it is something to consider.

Would you be studying with the main professor or left to a grad student for the first few years of degree? Is there a studio class? Tuba ensemble? Are chamber ensembles mandatory? Opportunities to play with wind ensembles and/or orchestras? Would you be required to do a year or more of marching band?

How do the performance degree curriculums stack up? Does one require more hours? If you hate music theory, maybe take a look at how many semesters of theory are required. Which would offer the most time to practice? Which would provide you the best non-playing education? Which requires the fewest (or most) non-music courses?

Which offers the most opportunities for gigging? Which city has the best freelance music scene? Which studio has been most active in the "tuba scene" (playing at conferences, sending students to competitions)? Which city has the lowest cost of living? Which city is the safest? Which college has the "college atmosphere" you like the best? Which Bob, Knight or Huggins?

[joebob]

If I were you I would erase your post before too many people read it. You should not publicly reference what Mr. Perantoni told you in this regard. It looks bad. Erase this and if you still want the information just post a question about the differences the two programs.

[happyroman]

You will be hard pressed to find a better teacher than Dan Perantoni. Also, you will likely find many more playing opportunities at IU due to the size of the School of Music. At least when I attended IU (in the early 1980s), there were five full sized orchestras at the school. The orchestras also combine every semester with the vocal department to perform opera, which was an incredible experience. So, there is an incredible opportunity to play and hear a lot of great music. I am sure Mr. Northcut is an excellent teacher, based on his resume. He studied with Mr. P at Arizona State, among a number of other excellent teachers. But would you prefer to study with Mr. P, or one of his students?

[bort]

Does Tim wear the same kind of hats as Dan? Hat choices are very important.

Frankly, just ask these same questions to Dan and Tim. When I got accepted to grad school (not music), I had trouble deciding where to go, and talked through it with the professors who would have been my advisors. Visit both schools, talk to the other students. You won't go wrong with either school, try to base your decision on fist hand information.

[one.kidney]

If I were you I would erase your post before too many people read it. You should not publicly reference what Mr. Perantoni told you in regards to you being his number one pick. It looks bad. Erase this and if you still want the information just post a question about the differences the two programs.

I edited my post. You brought up a very good point. Thank you for that.

[Jay Bertolet]

Both are great schools, I've sent my own students to both and they all reported back with varying degrees of mostly positive reports. That said, there's one question that I haven't seen you answer yet. Which one of the teachers did you most connect with when you had a private lesson with them? Surely, if you're being this circumspect in evaluating both schools, you have had a lesson with each of the prospective teachers to see which one connects with you personally. I've had a number of good teachers but only a couple where I really connected with them. That is a special kind of relationship, one that you can't predict by reputation or even past success. Since the private instructor will be the main engine in your improvement as a player (besides the work that you do/don't do in the practice room), my advice is to prioritize that aspect above all others. Everything else can be gained in other ways but finding the teacher that really sets your playing off is critical to being very successful. If you've had lessons with both and neither really hit it off with you, my advice is to look elsewhere. Yes, this is that important. Good luck!

[MaryAnn]

What I would be most careful of, because it happened to me. I was a violin major at IU in the late 1960s. I was under-prepared in terms of when I started studying (I had been playing only half as long as others my age,) but was also enthusiastically received, getting a Personal Faculty Scholarship. Then the school proceeded to chew me up and spit me out, expecting me to be far more advanced than I actually was (I did a good audition, but on a simple piece.) So....a few posts back there was one that brought up a large number of things you should look at, but I'd put this one on your list: how big a fish are you going to be in that pond? Really, really check that out. I should have gone to a smaller school as my parents wanted (Oberlin) but thought I was big stuff because of the scholarship and all. It didn't turn out well and ruined music for me as a permanent career. Maybe that would have happened anyway, but....food for thought.

As far as being enthusiastically received, teachers compete for students because their jobs depend on it. Never forget that. It happens at all levels and with the best of them. Not intending any insult to either of the teachers mentioned.

Also, how about job placement from either of the departments? Where do their grads end up? Do they end up where you want to be, or somewhere else? There are (french) horn studios where a large number of the grads actually get playing jobs, and studios that give great scholarships whose students don't often get playing jobs. More food for thought.

[Three Valves]

Would you be required to do a year or more of marching band?

Who doesn't want to be in the marching band??

[tubarepair]

Which of the two tuba professors did you feel the greatest rapport?

Which community offers the most musical opportunities outside of the college?

Which university has other majors that you might be interested in, should you change from music?

[Tubaguyry]

Would you be required to do a year or more of marching band?

Who doesn't want to be in the marching band??

Musicians.

[kontrabass]

I went to IU. Mr. P is an amazing teacher and the studio is great. Very supportive group who tend to succeed. (it's been now about a decade and I can look back - most of my crop is still chugging along in the industry in one way or another).

Indiana is an amazing school, there is a lot going for it - the facilities are world class, the town is GORGEOUS, you get an authentic "college town" experience, and it attracts great musicians from all over, which encourages you to excel.

The downside to IU is that it's HUGE. There are a TON of players there and about half of them are graduate students. This likely means they were the cream of the crop at their undergrad program (or even masters program if they're a diploma or doctoral candidate.) And the school has a bit of a "factory" vibe. It's a whirlwind of activity, but for an undergrad, it's very easy to get lost in the shuffle, and it can be difficult (emotionally) to be patient and go through the necessary growth and rebuilding phases while there is so much competition and pressure around you. Speaking personally, I would not have been ready for the intensity of IU as an undergrad - as a grad student I did ok - but everyone is different.

That's some information I can provide about the I.U. experience. I can't say anything about CCM because I didn't go there. I think the best thing you can do now is talk to more alumni and see if you can form an impression based on the sum of people's experiences, and see if you have a reaction the pushes you one way or the other.
Good luck either way!

[KevinMadden]

What a problem to have!

As an older master's student (I'm 30, having taken 7 years between my undergrad and my master's) I've developed some thoughts on what the undergrad experience is supposed to be about. YMMV of course, and it sounds like you're a far more proficient player than I was at your age, so add grains of salt appropriately.

In today's world it seems more and more like just about everyone will need advanced degrees. MOST people (unlike certain prodigy-level talent like a Carol Jantsch) will not really progress to being competitive on the audition circuit until they're in their master's or doctoral level studies. Also, since many performance majors eventually end up teaching at a college, an eventual DMA or Ph.D would be required to even have your resume looked at. With the praise you've received from two very respectable professors you may be one of those rare talents that doesn't need more than the bachelor's, but maybe not. I'm wary of conservatories and performance undergrads (though I have one) because of how narrowly focused your studies will be for the next four years. Going straight through for the next 9-11 years until you have a DMA is an option I've seen people do, but a very hard and long path to take, you'll probably want to take some time off between degrees, and that means getting some job, and probably one not in music. Also, after four years of undergrad you may decide that the professional tuba rat-race isn't for you anyway, and you'd be left with a college degree that prepared you to do one very specific thing, and not much else. The best undergrad program in my opinion (if you're not looking for a B.M.Ed, which you shouldn't be unless you know secondary music education is your calling) would be one where a generic B.A.Mus. has the same performance opportunities and music school access as the B.M.Perf. students. You're clearly a dedicated player to get this good by this point, I think you'll do as much practicing as necessary no matter what you're actually studying. Look for the school with the best overall education, the most equity in performance opportunity and applied professor access among music majors, and the school that will have the strongest career planning and alumni network. Also undergrad time is a very social time, it is that first time away from home time, find a place with lots of fun going on. Pick a place that seems to have lots of opportunity for community involvement and service. Those kinds of experience will serve you well in life in general. If after four years you know that performing on tuba is still your calling, is still the one thing you want to do over all else, then go super specific and narrow for the advanced degrees.

sorry for the ramble, hope it helps, good luck!

[Three Valves]

Musicians.

ZING!!

[tubadaddy92]

I pm'd you. I'm currently at CCM and would love to answer your questions.

Preston

[Tom]

So....a few posts back there was one that brought up a large number of things you should look at, but I'd put this one on your list: how big a fish are you going to be in that pond? Really, really check that out.

To build upon what Mary Ann already said:

This is important because it makes a huge difference in the kind of experience you can have.

There will be better players than you are wherever you decide to go - other undergraduates, graduate students doing MM, DM or DMA programs, performer's certificate students and so on. You may be a terrific player, but they are supposed to be better than you are. They're older and have been playing longer and studying with such-and-such teacher longer. When ensemble auditions come along and the premiere spots in the school's symphony orchestras and wind ensembles get snapped up by those students, what will you do? Are there other playing opportunities? Will you be satisfied with those opportunities? Will you end up spending 2 or 3 years in a practice room while playing in the marching band or in an a graduate assistant's all-comers "lab" band just to get required ensemble credits? Are you prepared for that to maybe be your experience? One can argue that is the harsh reality of the music business, but is that the kind of experience you want to possibly have for 4 years while you are actually paying for it? That is all part of the small fish-big pond / big fish-small pond element of your decision. I'm glad someone else brought it up - I think it's important.

[kontrabass]

One more thing.

I have to be a bit of a **** disturber here and mention some broader concepts.
I think it's important to spend some time in a big city where lots of interesting art is going on, so that you can see the bigger picture, beyond the narrow world we inhabit as orchestral players. We are in the middle of a tech revolution after all and every aspect of our society is changing, music included. I haven't been by IU in about a decade, so I don't know if they've modernized their programs at all, but when I was there it was a very very conservative place, artistically. Bloomington does have its own little music and art scene beyond the walls of the school that I wish I'd engaged with more. But if you do end up going there, I'd also recommend planning to live in a big city like New York or Chicago or London at some point. Your education is a lot more than the school you go to!

[swillafew]

Best of luck to you whatever you decide. This year I am an old ringer in college wind ensemble with many music majors in it. I am sitting next to a young gentleman who is an accounting major, and he makes me proud every time I hear him play. He has no trouble whatsoever playing the challenging parts. As far as I know he hasn't taken a lesson since he started at the college. My only point being, there are many paths, even for the likes of we tuba players.

[happyroman]

Abe Torchinsky used to say "If you want to smell like roses, hang around with roses. If you want to smell like crap (he used a different word) hang around with crap."

His point was that you should associate with the best musicians possible if you want to be a great musician. You need to understand what the standard is in order to be able to judge your personal progress. If you go somewhere that has a lot of excellent students, you will have no choice but work as hard as they do if you want to keep up. That is why I recommended IU in my previous post. If you want to be included with the best players out of a much larger pool of talent, you will have to truly dedicate yourself to achieving excellence.

That being said, wherever you go, the goal is to be the best possible musician (and person) that YOU can be. Your goal is not to be the best player at IU or CCM, because that kind of thinking places a limit on your potential. You do not simply want to be better than "that guy." Your potential may be so much better than "that guy" and if you settle for less than your best, you are short changing yourself.

I guarantee you that someone will show up at an audition some day that nobody ever heard of, and that went to a small school that does not nearly have the prestige of IU or CCM, and they will win the audition because they have become the best player THEY could be.