Opinions sought on a couple of horns

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Ferguson
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by Ferguson »

I've imported a number of the Wisemann C900 tubas. They are good players. I'd take one to a gig if I did such things. Like (nearly all) other China tubas, the Wisemann are obviously not made at the standard of European craftsmanship. You can see some working marks and unevenness on the bows, and our repair tech says he sees the normal sloppiness on the inside of the joints that you do find from most makers, Euro or otherwise. The silver finish seems to be decent, but one shipment had some damaged plating from an unknown solvent or lubricant that was on the horns at time of shipping. I can't imagine the optional gold trim is very thick or will last long. The piston action seems very good, though a good cleaning is in order, and Yamaha or other springs will improve it. I too have concerns about the price, which is about 50% of a Euro tuba. But they sell, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Some smaller instruments we (Horn Guys) import from China maker Jinbao sell for closer to 10% of the similar Euro instrument prices. But those are of lower quality than the Wisemann, and I also understand that the Chinese don't want to be working in sweatshops. They want to sell decent high-priced goods, and they're getting there. These are also really big tubas in really big cases, and they do not ship across the pond cheaply. Martin Wilk was planning to design a set of MAW pistons for the Wisemann, but I don't know if that has come to fruition yet.

Other China tubas I see around here include the Packer CC which seems to my eye to be a bit better in workmanship than the Wisemann. It's also heavier than it needs to be. But it's very Hirsbrunner-like, which I appreciate, as I like Hirsbrunners. (Just a reminder that yes, Hirsbrunner is still in business.) We also see the Eastman, which is hands down the best looking of the China bunch as far as fit and finish. The Eastman is smaller than most bazooka players seem to want, so I can't seem give one of these away and I'm tired of looking at it. Too bad, as they are a good deal from your local dealer. Eastman and Packer are both easier to get parts and warranty for their instruments, as they have US import offices. Mack Brass offers good service for their stenciled Wisemanns.

I haven't played on the BMB tubas, but I have held them and I don't care for the 5th rotor linkage at all. It's not ergonomic for me and the rubber band is cheap-***. That annoys me and I wouldn't take one to a gig. Other than that, one very good local player uses and recommends them. I suspect Richard's service is personal and very good.

-F
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chronolith
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by chronolith »

Regarding Wisemann: I owned a PT6 for quite a few years. If you really like the PT6 then the Wisemann is a good option providing you can find one in good shape and have access to a good repair facility for upkeep and tweaking. If you don't like the PT6, look elsewhere.

My biggest problem with the BMB linkage is the throw. There is no lever like you are used to. You are literally turning the valve in the casing with your thumb. The linkage on it is way more adjustable than a standard fifth rotor though. You can move the post wherever you want it, and you can adjust the tension on it with a simple rubber band(s). I use several which means if one breaks, I keep going. While it should be extremely rare that a linkage goes out on while you are playing, the BMB offers a quick recovery whereas a failed linkage on a standard horn means you are basically screwed. From a certain POV it is pretty ingenious.

As for recommendations of piston horns with good intonation for a good price - I'm not going near that one :-). There is an old saying: Fast - Cheap - Reliable... Pick any two.

Recently I saw some nice MWs up here used (2182 and 45SLP I think). Might still be quirky but good instruments and with a good used price. If you are VERY lucky you can find a used Petrushka for a good price. I am not lucky so far. If you have the cash this is probably the horn you are thinking about in terms of wants and needs. Others may disagree but only you can tell for sure. Plan on doing the rounds at conferences. Save up the extra cash if that is what it will take to get the right horn. Don't rush into buying anything, and don't buy anything unless it is the right horn.

In my opinion, the only people who need an F tuba are the people who can already play all the F tuba stuff on their CC/BBb.
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imperialbari
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by imperialbari »

(posted in wrong thread)
Last edited by imperialbari on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tubaguyry
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by Tubaguyry »

On a very related note: is there anyplace left in the central U.S. that has quite a few F and large C tubas in one place to try, now that there's no more WWBW? Say, within about a 500-mile radius of Springfield, MO? Anything in Dallas? Chicago?
Ryan Rhodes
Springfield, MO

Big Mouth Brass J-445LQ F
JinBao 600S F
1919 Holton Eb
1964 Olds O-97 BBb sousaphone

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
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bisontuba
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by bisontuba »

Tubaguyry wrote:On a very related note: is there anyplace left in the central U.S. that has quite a few F and large C tubas in one place to try, now that there's no more WWBW? Say, within about a 500-mile radius of Springfield, MO? Anything in Dallas? Chicago?

Make it 600 miles...possibly Cassio Interstate Music in Milwaukee...
Mark
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by Tubaguyry »

bisontuba wrote:
Tubaguyry wrote:On a very related note: is there anyplace left in the central U.S. that has quite a few F and large C tubas in one place to try, now that there's no more WWBW? Say, within about a 500-mile radius of Springfield, MO? Anything in Dallas? Chicago?

Make it 600 miles...possibly Cassio Interstate Music in Milwaukee...
Mark
Thanks for the tip, Mark. I'll take a look!
Ryan Rhodes
Springfield, MO

Big Mouth Brass J-445LQ F
JinBao 600S F
1919 Holton Eb
1964 Olds O-97 BBb sousaphone

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Tubaguyry
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by Tubaguyry »

bloke wrote:
Tubaguyry wrote:On a very related note: is there anyplace left in the central U.S. that has quite a few F and large C tubas in one place to try, now that there's no more WWBW? Say, within about a 500-mile radius of Springfield, MO? Anything in Dallas? Chicago?
WERE there a viable LOCAL-to-me market (to support mail-order sales - with are very annoying, when it comes to "selling tubas"), I might have considered being a Buffet/Miraphone/etc. dealer...but the trade-off of living in the nation's lowest cost-of-living region is that most folks around here are broke. :|
Yeah, I know what you mean, Joe. It's the same way here in the Ozarks. You'll always have a special place in my heart, though -- I bought my very first tuba from you! Back in 2001, when I first got to Ft. Campbell from Korea, I bought that little Weril 4 front piston CC from you. (Which, by the way, especially for the -- I think something like $1700 I paid -- was a GREAT little horn! Even when I had both my F and my Miraphone 188 a few years ago, it was tough letting that little sucker go!)
Ryan Rhodes
Springfield, MO

Big Mouth Brass J-445LQ F
JinBao 600S F
1919 Holton Eb
1964 Olds O-97 BBb sousaphone

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Tubaguyry
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Re: Opinions sought on a couple of horns

Post by Tubaguyry »

Well, I bought a used BMB F from a user on this site. (Long drive from Springfield, MO to Denver, and back in a 48-hour period, by the way!)

Obviously there is a honeymoon stage with any new horn. But holy cow...I am dumbstruck by the wonderful-nessthis horn. THIS is how a tuba is supposed to sound/handle! Finally, an F tuba that doesn't sound like a wheezy old man!!! It actually sounds like a TUBA throughout its range, unlike rotor Fs!

You folks who said it had "decent intonation" --- YOU GUYS!!! I'm dying laughing over here -- the intonation is practically perfect! Thank you for pointing out possible problems -- as I asked in the original post -- but you had me kinda worried for a bit! :P

The 5th thumb rotor? I love it. This is so much better than having two or three pieces of linkage flapping around all over the place to turn the rotor. Press bar -- boom. Right there. And the ability to fine-tune it is fantastic. I'm already thinking of some ways to use different stretchy materials with some crimp ferrules to make it even better...

I remember someone mentioned having to resolder the thumb ring brace. Yep! The previous owner had to do that on this one, too! It does seem a bit...tenuous, doesn't it? I will have to come up with a better solution, if not just take it off. Not a big deal at all, though.

The first valve slide -- while not unusable by any means -- is a bit stiff. I'm not sure yet if it's got a bit of crud in there, or if it's an alignment thing. I will have to pay some attention there to get it trombone-like, as I think most of us like our first valve slides.

The ONE thing that I think I would prefer to be a tiny bit different is the angle of the leadpipe where it comes around the bell to the mouthpiece receiver. As it is now, I have to hold the horn such that the far side is tilted pretty far away from my body. I would prefer that the leadpipde curved around further so that I could hold the horn closer. Unless I'm much mistaken, this seems like something that shouldn't be a big deal for me to have done at some point, if I really want to. So not a huge deal or anything.

As I said, it actually has a TUBA tone. Playing this in the staff feels exactly like playing my late teacher's Rusk-cut York CC. (Not QUITE as buttery a sound as the York, but what is?) Going from note to note is effortless; they feel....close together, if that makes any sense? This horn sings like an angel in the high register, and sounds (no joke at all) damn near like a 4/4 CC belting out "Fountains of Rome" and "Symphonic Metamorphosis" (you know which parts I'm talking about.) Absolutely incredible. The low register on this baby has actually given me something to think about. I'm not sure if I really need to buy a separate big CC for the scope of the type of playing I do/will be doing around here. Don't get me wrong, nobody will ever accuse it of having the breadth of a big horn! But I'm not sure that for my purposes I PERSONALLY really need to spend the extra $6k+ for just a bit of added breadth in a few select situations. The BMB F is DEFINITELY the perfect one-axe-for-damn-near-everything horn!

Since I was in the general area to pick up my new baby, I decided to swing by TECOR in Greeley (it was nice to see you again, Ken F.!) for just a bit before I made the long drive home. There were several horns there to try out, so I did. Here are some impressions I had, FWIW:

XO 1680 CC piston 4+1 -- I was surprised by how HEAVY this is! It looks and feels like a VERY expensive, well-made horn. Very nice first impression. And it actually sounds pretty damn good. Nice, fat sound up and down the range. I didn't spend much time on it, and until this horn I hadn't played anything besides my F and Eb since I sold my Miraphone 188 almost five years ago, but there's a lot to like about this horn. I can't get specific, since I wasn't really going at it with an analytical approach, but my impression was that there were a few notes that would need a bit of slide work to play in tune with full resonance. It was definitely a bit funky a few times. However, that was probably at least 75% me, since I haven't played a CC in so long.

XO also had several euphs there, which I did not try.

There were several B&S and Menl Weston horns. Again, several euphoniums at that table that I didn't play. There were several rotary tubas, but they only received cursory blow-throughs from me, since -- as expected -- they sounded and played like rotary tubas. Bleh.

There WAS, however, a MW 3225 Ursus. YUMMY! That was one hell of a beefy "4/4" CC tuba, my friends! I didn't spend all that long with it, since it was VERY popular and I have absolutely no intention of spending that kind of money on a tuba. However, there is a hell of a lot to like about this horn. As you might expect, it does indeed play like a slightly-less-beefy version of the 6450. If I had to give an impression based upon that very short time, I would say it played and sounded (to me) like a cross between a Thor and a Baer. Definitely worth checking out for those in the market for something like this who have those kind of financial resources.

There were also two piston Fs (which, as you probably expected, I was most interested in comparing to my newly-acquired BMB!) I think it was suggested somewhere in this thread that I should check out a MW 2182 (I have never happened to be around one of these to try it), and there just happened to be one here! I...did not like this horn much. It felt/sounded very rotary-ish. The sound was not juicy and fat, it was nebulous, dry, and thin just like a yucky rotary F. The notes did not feel close together...it was a lot of work to play. Meh.

The other piston F was the B&S MRP. This actually wasn't too bad at all. It played/sounded more like a piston F should. The sound was a bit more tuba-ish, and it wasn't nearly as much work to play as the 2182. Mid and high range were actually pretty damn nice. However, toward the bottom of the range it sounded just like pretty much every other F tuba I've ever played: anemic. The low range sounds....hollow? You know what I mean. Not tuba-ish.

After playing around on these horns for a bit, I went to the back of the room and got out my new purchase to compare. I just started laughing. The BMB sounds so much better and plays so much easier than those suckers, it's almost sad. Keep in mind, this is not a horn I've had for any amount of time to get comfortable with. I had just picked it up in Denver a couple hours prior, and had a total of about 10 minutes of face time before this point.

Anyway...what I'm trying to say is, the BMB F is definitely a slam-dunk. I am DEFINITELY glad it was still available after I had done my homework (thank you for all your input, by the way!) and procured the funds!
Ryan Rhodes
Springfield, MO

Big Mouth Brass J-445LQ F
JinBao 600S F
1919 Holton Eb
1964 Olds O-97 BBb sousaphone

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
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