Pitch Problems with Jin Bao/Schiller JBB-210S/TU210S

[Michael Bush]

As others have said, there are different reasons for these playing sharp. If it is beyond all doubt that it is only a few months old, then I know nuffink (that has not already been said).

However, I had one of these about six or seven years ago, and it had a nice, even scale assuming A=443. I was just coming back to playing, so part of my inability to get it down to 440 was on me. But at that level of playing ability, I couldn't pull the original MTS enough to get it down to pitch. A longer MTS basically fixed it for me at the time.

If there is the slightest possibility it could predate the changes Mack Brass and Wessex have pushed, it might just be that it was built too short.

I dunno. But it's a thought.

[Lectron]

.......and do not have time or space to practice in between at all........

Could be an issue. Practice tends to help a lot of things

[Three Valves]

Playing is practice!!

[jtuba]

.......and do not have time or space to practice in between at all........

Could be an issue. Practice tends to help a lot of things

I sat next to the previous owner in concerts, he is a practice machine, so whatever might have been going on, he learned the tendencies of the horn and made adjustments. Having played it a bit, a huge mpc I don't think will be the answer on this horn. I have to pull for 24 even for the German instrument manufacturers. And yes there could be construction issues affecting the horn as well, and those same issues exist on $10K+ horns too, but usually to a lesser degree. Good luck finding something, and sometimes you do need to make a mechanical adjustment to a horn to get it to play they way you want. I had longer ferrules made for a 25K+ German instrument so I would have more margin for tuning in the sometimes extreme conditions I'm asked to perform.

[Lectron]

Playing is practice!!

Pfft.....

[TheGoyWonder]

SPOT ON assessment of these tuba-shaped objects. You can putz around in the staff and have it seem tubalike, but on the low BBb partial it just starts shutting down.

[TheGoyWonder]

this is what I'm talking about - you play the low BBb and it's like your playing the pedal on a euph plus stuffier. OP says similar. doesn't mean there couldn't be some good ones but bad ones are common.

[Michael Bush]

doesn't mean there couldn't be some good ones but bad ones are common.

I would put that the other way around. No doubt there are some bad ones, especially among those several years old, and especially "Schiller" stenciled ones. But on the whole these are nice-playing tubas.

[Davidus1]

If you have the opportunity to use some of the more common mouthpieces as suggested. (Bach 18, Conn 120S, etc.) this would be a good start. I would also see if you could get someone else to try it as well. I purchased a CC Piggy a long time ago and it played very sharp.......I thought it was me and then had another guy in my section, who was a fine player, try it. It was sharp for him as well and not correctable. I returned the horn for another that didn't have that issue. Unfortunately that isn't the solution with Schiller. Best wishes with the issue.

[MackBrass]

Since my name was brought up here in will chime in. The 210 model is by far our best selling tuba and is a great horn in sound, response and yes, intonation.

It was mentioned that we sell longer tuning slides, we'll we dont as we give them away. To be clear on this, in 6 years we have given away 12 longer slides to customers that needed to bring the pitch down more than the standard length slide. I know the number is 12 because 6 years ago I ordered 10 longer slides for each of our models because I understand there are some players that do play on the sharp side no matter what the brand, make or model tuba. There are many tuba players out there that have had to lengthen their main slide on just about every brand ever made. This issue is not model specific as much as it is player specific. Is it a bad thing if someone needs a longer main? Heck no as i know many pros that play with either longer slides or slides pulled almost all the way out.
Last year was the first time I had to order more slides for this model and i did give away two more just recently bringing my total to 12. Now if I had sold only 20 or 30 of these tubas i would agree and say yes this was an issue. But since we have probably sold about a thousand, yes 1000 of these tubas during the past 6 years, giving away only 12 longer slides is not reflective of this model being in consistant our having pitch issues.

To get back to the statements of these being hit or miss to some, i dont think so as my opinion is these are very consistant.

When it comes to intonation, its about the player and their ears that make it, not the horn. The horn just facilitates what is thrown at it. Don't get me wrong here as a poorly in tune horn is very difficult to play in tune and someone that doesn't have a high level of development with good pitch, it will be almost impossible to play.

Are there dud 210 models out there? Sure there are. Are there many? No I don't think so.

Pitch with this model has never been an issue as there are no notes that are far off. No tuba is close to perfect and the ones that are still need a good driver.

I can't say for sure if this is equipment based or user based but in my experience in cases like these, the issues are more user based. Please dont take this as an insult as that is not my intention. I have had hundreds upon hundreds of students over the years ranging from 6th grade to PhD grads and I can tell you that intonation is 99% user and 1% equipment.

Ever wonder how a pro can play a vintage Alexander CC tuba and sound great on them? I use the Alexander CC as an example because it's probably one of the most out of tune tubas out there but because they have an amazing sound, musicians are will to make them work.

Here is how the issue can be tested as user error or equipment failure and anyone that thinks their horn may have issues can try this. Buzz a basic BBb major scale on the mpc. Buzz that scale and turn the tuner on only after you think the each note is in tune. Use the tuner to check where every note stands but don't tune to the tuner. When you turn the tuner on keep your pitch rock solid and don't change it because you see your 20 or 30 cents flat or sharp as this is just a test for your ears. Fixing intonation is another subject but this exercise is not meant for fixing intonation as it is only meant as a test.

Here are your questions for the test,
Is every note near perfect when the tuner is turned on? If they are not near perfect then intonation issues are more likely the user error kind. If you can buzz what appears to be a simple scale and it's spot on with a tuner but can't be duplicated on the horn then yes, we have a potential equipment failure. There is the old saying, if you cant buzz or sing it in tune then you won't be able to push a button and play it in tune either. Practice and experience are the best ways to fix most horn issues.

[Ltrain]

Mmmmmm hmmmmmm

[PaulMaybery]

My first encounter as a teeneager with a larger bore tuba (I had been playing a sousaphone with under .700 bore and going to one with nearly .800 and also a much larger taper) was that my intonation was all over the place, but on most notes simply sharp. My embouchure for a kid was way too tight and I was probably doing most things wrong. Eventually as I got used to the larger horn, things improved a bit. Most normal mouthpieces that were mentioned such as the Bach 18, Conn Helleberg and similar ones will get you there. If they don't, then it is likely a dog of a horn or you may have issues that you were not aware of.

As was mentioned in an earlier post, intonaton is close to 99% the user. Playing a tuba to me wound up being a concept of sound. Once I got that sound in my head I was able to reproduce it pretty much on demand, and that is when the intonaton issues began to go away. But I do recall that even so, the MTS on that german rotary horn needed to be out around 2 inches until the day I sold it. In the meantime, I now have acquired some very fine instruments,(check my signature) yes they wound up being chinese, but they have no serious issues. I do undertand the MTS issue and that simply may be something to check.

However, all this being said, it would be great for you to have a horn that does not need too much special treatment and more or less is set up to play music in tune and with a pretty consistant sound - top to bottom. While I had some sentiment on the older horns that I had used early on in my professional career, I was much happier when I found one that worked better for me and really did not shed that many tears when I let one go for something better.

This might sound cruel, but if that were my horn, I would unload it in a heartbeat. I would not rationalize that it was "such a deal," nor would I worry about the feelings of the person from whom I bought it. It's like buying shoes, if they don't fit, don't buy them and don't wear them. Any more I;m not that patient.

Best wishes on your journey.

[Three Valves]

And then, many of them are simply very large cuspidors.

I prefer jardiniere!!

[Three Valves]

...as the factory "Schiller" mouthpiece brought it way more in tune using the same embouchure.

You mean "genuine" Schiller mouthpiece??

[Lectron]

.......and the response on the MF3 wasn't all that great but the sound was. Factory Gustav Schiller for the win folks. Horn is relatively in tune with minimal pulled slides...

I you want to change something, that would mean doing something different.
That would mean actually putting in some effort.

If you sound good on that MF3, that means thee is something there that works with you.
Now you need to learn to play it.....and that takes more than a few hours trail.

Don't jump back and forth....pick a good iron gob. L2P and than move to a different if you still feel it has limitations.

[Lectron]

It had too much of a throat bore than what I was used to and required too much air to get the same results as a smaller more comfortable and responsive mouthpiece. I played on a large 33.60mm mouthpiece for 25 years, so there's really no need to put in any more effort to adjust. I can manhandle it if I wanted, but as I get older those gigantic mouthpieces don't suit me physically anymore. I also sounded good on the Monette, and can sound just as good on a 24AW..it's all about comfort and ease nowadays rather than blowing the press box away in marching band.

Some good valid points
I go for (and recommend) the one that gives me most comfort, endurance and ease of play without sacrificing too much of the sound I want
I like to play the tuba, not fight it