TubeNet

All this talk about modifying tubas that flies around here has gotten me thinking.

In the guitar world, as I am sure all of you know, modifications spell disaster for the worth of the instrument. It is recommended that if you replace tuners or any other part on your guitar that you keep the original, broken or not, because if you dont, you will have a "player guitar" that is worth thousands less than an "all original" guitar.

Sooooo..... Does making a tuba more playable ever decrease the value of the instrument? Are we even to the point as an instrument of being able to say that the tuba is worth more unmodified to justify it being left unplayable?

The only tubas I know of with collector value where the authenicity matters are 19th century bass saxhorns. These are typically used in civil war reenactment bands and an instrument with incorrect or newly fabricated parts will have less value than an all-original instrument. Compared to new tubas, an old saxhorn is not particularly expensive.

I think there are several reasons why tubas have a different collector status than guitars:

1. Tubas are immortal. Guitars are made of wood under high stress and kept in who knows what conditions unfriendly to wood. King Tut was buried with a metal horn, an instrument that still worked thousands of years later. At some point a guitar becomes unsalvageable, but a tuba lives forever.

2. Tamper proof. Anyone can replace tuning machines or a pickup on a guitar, but modifying a tuba actually requires some skill. All the parts need to be custom made so modifications tend to be at least as high in quality as the instrument if not higher.

2. Fashion. Guitars have been made in once fashionable but now goofy looking styles that people enjoy. Tubas have pretty much looked the same from the 1880's onward.

3. Wannabes. There are millions and millions of guitar fans who would love to own an authentic example of the guitar their hero played. High demand drives the price up and authenicity is one bargaining point buyers use to try to bring the price down.

-Eric

I might add: the reputation of ancient string instrument is just unbelievable. These things are SOOO famous for the incredible sound quality the original craftmanship, choice of material, and even the finish of the instrument´s body will produce.
Think of those 500.000-$ Amatis, Stradivarius´ and then their bows. The general idea is that those are considered PERFECT instruments. The nature of anything perfect: which ever way you go from the north pole, you can´t get further north. You always go south from where you are.

Now compare that to the way the tuba manufacturers boast their state-of-the-art brand new instruments with technically improved valve mechanics. And these things DO play better than most old instruments, at least technically. So if you can replace an ancient valve system and get SUPERIOR ergonomics, agility, and noise reduction, you enhanced the usability of the horn and its worth for the orchestra.

If somebody figured out ways to "improve" (whatever that may be) the sound of a violin (maybe a different shape or carbon body, who knows ?), that´s what the pro musicians would buy to play.
Collectors´value is something totally different. Here the concept is the same with violins as well as tubas, just on a different level.

I bought a 1960 Gibson guitar in 1968.It had been played a lot.I played it a lot and did not hesitate to refret it and install new machine heads.Im glad I did even though I reduced the value.My point is an instrument that has been played often and well plays (to me) better than a closet axe.
tubatooter1940

bloke wrote: *Can you site an example of a not-particularly-playable tuba with any considerable monetary value?

Mike Lynch would be the ultimate authority on this one, but I've heard that Bill Bell's old rotary King CC was a perfectly awful instrument.

I seem to remember that Frank Zappa had one of Jimi Hendrix's old Fender Statocaster. Apparently it was quite beat-up and pretty much useless as a "player". FZ "restored" it with considerable non-standard custom mod's. His family even performed a second custom rebuild after his death and then had it put up for auction....turning down ~ half a million bucks.

Here is at least one case in which guitar "value" has escalated even in the face of extreme modification....based on simple celebrity status.

bloke wrote:' anybody wanna risk fixin' a Fiske?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7320628870

bloke "rubber-baby-buggy-bumpers-rubber-baby-buggy-bumpers-rubber-baby-buggy-bumpers-"

Nope, I figger there's a reason they don't build 'em that way any more. I suspect at $1K with 9 days to go, it'll fetch a pretty penny.

I think musicians and collectors are two different species, although it is possible (but rare) for a person to be both.

Regarding tubas, it's not possible for collectors to hoard all of the best tubas, since the best ones can be purchsed new, and the manufacturers can simply make more. Most tuba collectors I know about buy interesting old (but cheap) horns. Good musicians just buy the equipment that helps them make the sounds they want to make.

Regarding (acoustic) guitars, unlike violins they only have so many good playing hours in them before the sound goes "dead." Professional guitarists regularly have new guitars made.

On this general topic, check Dillon's web site. They have Aurthur Pryor's trombone for sale, for a mere $250,000.

Allen

P.S. If the price were right, I might consider selling my old Eb dent-o-phone. It used to be a tuba, but the tuba part has mostly been replaced by dents! It makes that Fisk tuba look like the latest expensive-o-phone. Anybody want to make me a (huge) offer?

This horn appears to be a "modification 1st prize winner".

That tuba is awesome.
I wonder how that thing sounds, though I think I have an idea...

I think it really depends on the horn as to the impact of modifications. In most cases, I tend to be a pretty strong preservationist, liking to see instruments of unique character or of historical significance maintained in original form. I long ago got interested in the horns of famous players, and I think it is enlightening and sobering to see how well some horns that are not all that great were played by great players. I have a rotary valve Martin CC formerly owned by Jay McAllister, with about as challenging a scale as anyone neeeds to face in dark alley. But I also have an LP of Jay playing that horn in a quintet and sounding great on it.
As Chuck(G) noted, the King that Bill Bell played for years was by all reports not at all a good horn, with many intonation weirdnesses. I have the first rotary King that he had, and while consistently reported to be far, far better than the one he played for years, it is still "a challenge". [Others of that series however, like the one played by Joe Novotny are much better.] For the educational value of these horns, and the insight into earlier times and players. I think those horns need to be preserved. And there are some pretty interesting horns from the early part of the century that are of designs that just aren't around anymore, that I would hate to see changed.

But having said that, there are a lot of horns out there that in most cases, as Harold says, can increase in value with a good modification, done in an authentic manner. And while a preservationist, I own two horns that started life as top action BBb's, that Matt Walters turned into two of the most amazing 5 valve CC's I have ever played. Sufficiently so that the phrase "I'm not worthy" became appropriate, so they are both on extended loan where they are being played professionally. And I'm not sure any of us would argue that Bloke's helicon isn't an advance for the instrument in both interest and value (even if it is currently priced "slightly" above the used helicon market--althought the used CC helicon market has offered very few "comparables" lately to help set the value...)

So let's not go taking the torch to those rotary Kings and the like without compelling reason. But if that 20K in the corner with no particular pedigree just keeps saying "I want to be a helicon...let me go visit Bloke...", well, maybe that's not such a bad idea...

Mike Lynch