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"core"/"fundamental"

Postby bloke » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:12 am

As these nouns seem to be used here quite a bit, this is what "core"/"fundamental" ("pure tone / sine wave) sounds like:

http://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby bort » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:25 am

Show of hands -- who else used this to play the theremin part from "Good Vibrations." :?:
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Donn » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:33 am

"Fundamental" for sure, but "core" is not likely to have such a clear meaning. What if, as we're regularly told, you can barely if at all even hear the fundamental? Is it still "core"?

You know what a "square wave" sounds like (it's rude.) Is a square wave with the same period equally "fundamental"?
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby bloke » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:47 am

Donn wrote:"Fundamental" for sure, but "core" is not likely to have such a clear meaning. What if, as we're regularly told, you can barely if at all even hear the fundamental? Is it still "core"?

You know what a "square wave" sounds like (it's rude.) Is a square wave with the same period equally "fundamental"?


To me, the word "core" is a meaningless word (as it relates to tuba resonance) unless it can be defined, or has a synonym.
Last edited by bloke on Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Three Valves » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:48 am

I was going to blow $4500.00 on a new mini MOOG, but thanks to the good Mr Szynalski, a fellow Polish prodigy, I won't have to!!
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby imperialbari » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:08 am

Interesting site. Useable to test ones upwards hearing range, frequecy-wise.

But in my opinion not at all what core in brass instruments’ sounds is about.

For me core is about a cluster of overtones from which no overtones are missing or even significantly weaker than the rest of the cluster. In the same way no overtones are sticking out from the cluster by being segnificantly louder than the rest of the cluster.

The more overtones this cluster encompasses, the fuller the sound is perceived. A full sound is neither dark nor bright, it is full.

If the internal balance of the full cluster is skewed toward the lower overtones, then the sound is dark.

If the internal balance of the full cluster is skewed toward the upper overtones, then the sound is bright.

If the cluster is narrow with few overtones balancing well, then the sound is thin.

If the cluster is wider, but missing overtones inside the cluster (which then really no longer is a cluster), then the sound is perceived as being hollow.

If there is a weak cluster plus a dominating high overtone, the sound is piercing.

If there is a weak cluster with a stronger low partial, like heard in bad tuba playing, the ensemble has a hard time playing in tune, because there is no grid of overtones to relate to.

The many individual sounds heard even in good full brass playing comes from tiny variations in the balances between the overtones.

And then I haven’t even spoken of the formants that are higher partials resulting from the interaction of the main overtones. The formants are what makes it possible to hear the differences between the various wovels in sung texts.

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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Casca Grossa » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:27 pm

Good core/fundamental can only be achieved on a horn with nice, wide slots.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby bloke » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:43 pm

Casca Grossa wrote:Good core/fundamental can only be achieved on a horn with nice, wide slots.


ISWYDT :lol:
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby timothy42b » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:02 pm

Casca Grossa wrote:Good core/fundamental can only be achieved on a horn with nice, wide slots.


Or by playing right in the center of a narrow deep slot, right?

You'll have to pull slides to stay in tune probably.

Otherwise I'm lost as to what you might mean.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Casca Grossa » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:11 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Casca Grossa wrote:Good core/fundamental can only be achieved on a horn with nice, wide slots.


Or by playing right in the center of a narrow deep slot, right?

You'll have to pull slides to stay in tune probably.

Otherwise I'm lost as to what you might mean.


It was an inside joke for Bloke or anyone else who remembers one of his posts from a few weeks ago. Joe got it. :lol:
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby THE TUBA » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:55 pm

I'll take the Justice Potter Stewart approach. "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it," and this is a good example of "core" to me.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby TheGoyWonder » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:28 pm

Square wave = odd harmonics only
triangle wave = even harmonics only (or different attenuation on odd harmonics, I guess both make a triangle but different phases)
sawtooth wave = all harmonics

Donn wrote:"Fundamental" for sure, but "core" is not likely to have such a clear meaning. What if, as we're regularly told, you can barely if at all even hear the fundamental? Is it still "core"?

You know what a "square wave" sounds like (it's rude.) Is a square wave with the same period equally "fundamental"?
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Donn » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:03 pm

TheGoyWonder wrote:Square wave = odd harmonics only


(I think strictly speaking you mean odd partials? 1st harmonic = 2nd partial, do I remember that right?) I could see something like that happening with the right relative magnitude of 1st and 3rd - but that situation isn't likely to obtain in musical instruments, is it? I don't know, it's just my understanding that the clarinet family presents the characteristic odd partials sound, in the lower register particularly, and it may be the least square-wave-sounding of the woodwinds.

My impression is that mechanically, square wave is the result of clipping the extremes of a high energy source. Among the woodwinds, you might hear something like that in the baritone saxophone played reasonably loud so the reed strikes the mouthpiece, with a small chamber/high baffle mouthpiece; in the brass, I'm guessing that's one of the acoustic phenomena behind what I think we call "bell tone" and "blat", similarly encouraged by shallow mouthpieces.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Lectron » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:30 pm

Xharmonic = x+1partial, yes.
When constructing a square wave, it's odd hamonics. (1, 3, 5, 7.......)
Clipping, like a stereo og PA will in worse case be a square wave
Rectifying AC will make 2 squares of the sinusoidal shapes

Playing with high energy in 3rd and 5th (the quint octave above the fundamental and third two octaves above) will give a typical "square" sound, like a poor transistor amplifier.

Same amount of energy on the 2nd only will give a soother sound

Edit:
If two tubas, and one desides to play 8va Basso, that means that one of his strong sounding harmonics, the 3rd, will be the quint in the accord and make that more dominating than intentional. He might want the effect to be a stronger fundamental, but ends up giving a stronge quint
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Donn » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:24 pm

Lectron wrote:Playing with high energy in 3rd and 5th (the quint octave above the fundamental and third two octaves above) will give a typical "square" sound, like a poor transistor amplifier.

Same amount of energy on the 2nd only will give a soother sound


OK, now another terminology issue - we sometimes use "partial" as intended as one part of the natural harmonic series of a tone, but perhaps more often it refers to the range of notes that correspond to that partial of the lowest note that can be played on the tuba. That awkward phrasing is the best I can do, but for example "3rd partial" on a BBb tuba is F down to B, below the bass staff.

I used to think these are really the same meaning - as these frequencies resonate within the physical length of the tuba, they naturally are in fact those partials - but I have been mostly persuaded that this is wrong, and every note produced on the tuba contains the full natural harmonic series for that note. Whether those partial wavelengths match the length of the tuba or not, which does not make sense to me, but people were able to present meter data that purportedly shows those whole series, and I'm apparently the only one who ever doubted it, so what can I say.

I mention it because of course it matters to the above notion of playing the 3rd, 5th, 2nd partials. According to my discredited version of tuba acoustics, this would simply mean playing the notes below F2, D3 and Bb1 respectively, or given the accepted notion that each note anywhere in the scale is a full harmonic series, it would instead mean mastering the production of overtones to the extent that you can emphasize these specific partials as described. I think it would be easier to approximate a square wave by blowing too hard.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Erik_Sweden » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:54 pm

What harmonics and what level is it in the tuba spectum ?
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby TheGoyWonder » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:57 pm

I'm gonna say 200-500 or 600 Hz is Core. regardless of fundamental pitch.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby bloke » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:38 pm

THE TUBA wrote:I'll take the Justice Potter Stewart approach. "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it," and this is a good example of "core" to me.


Though not "household names of brass", nor a "major orchestral work"...
How about this recording from 2013 - when both the bass trombone player and I were using smaller mouthpieces than we normally use?

:arrow: 2:37 - 7:47 "core"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWVYsXXT5J0
(We actually pulled out those mouthpieces to try to "match" that powerful horn player who was on the gig that year.)
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Lectron » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:23 am

So we have stated that core and fundamental means differently for people, and I kinda agree to that.
I like to use the word "burn" to get more of that "brassy" sound....above what I would define as core

TheGoyWonder wrote:I'm gonna say 200-500 or 600 Hz is Core. regardless of fundamental pitch.

Image
Ok...200-600 is way above fundamental, and also closer to most people reference in determing SPL
There is a reason some Sousa blasters love their LM12......they sound loud, but as others has found out with
some lighter sheet brass tubas and shallow/small mouthpieces. Their sound drown in the other brass sections.
Tnere's hardly any fundamental in the back of the hall......hardly anything of the note that is actually WRITTEN
(and first couple of harmonics). Might sound loud, but energy is shiftet upwards in register.

Going up and octave, it takes half the energy to produce a tone "just as loud". Making a rich sound with a strong
fundamental AND lots of higher partials, IOW. An interesting good sound that also fill the hall with the written note
takes understanding and effort. Make that fundamental sound.....it's the carrying wave for the rest of the music.

If you want your "core" in the 600Hz area.....pick a different instrument :wink:
Last edited by Lectron on Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "core"/"fundamental"

Postby Lectron » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:30 am

bloke wrote:
THE TUBA wrote:
:arrow: 2:37 - 7:47 "core"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWVYsXXT5J0
(We actually pulled out those mouthpieces to try to "match" that powerful horn player who was on the gig that year.)

Ah......Hyfrydol
At a Seminar with Rex Martin, we (or I, as I love that hymn) picked that to work with...balance, sound etc.
Played that hymn 3876 times that weekend :tuba:

Btw.....BAT....why I like to play large tuba.
One can have an enveloping sound (fundamental) AND a rich sound (lots of energy in the harmonics)
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