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Postby Salazarsam33 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:42 pm

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Re: Warped slides.

Postby lowbrassmaniac » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:00 pm

Which horn? I know my MTS has an issue sometimes if I pull it to empty it getting back in.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby 58mark » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:10 pm

probably a craftsmanship issue more than a warping issue. I've been really impressed with the slides on my Jinbao/wessex. The 2nd valve slide was so good right out of the box that if you pulled it out, suction would pull it back in

JB might deserve some bashing for many things, but slide alignment is not one of them


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8ad_mW7kqA
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby ValveSlide » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:50 pm

Lucky you if your JB/Wessex slides move. Some need "help."

The one I owned certainly did. Removal of inners, outers, and adjusting crooks required.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby bloke » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:53 pm

I took some Jb slide tube pairs and used them on a much more expensive (personally-owned) instrument.

Regardless of who made them or where they were made, it depends on the particular tubes, yes?
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby ValveSlide » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:57 pm

Function depends on many factors...
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby goodgigs » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:47 pm

Salazarsam33,
Two of the above responders are known to be superior quality craftsman in the repair trade.
There are many nation wide, but quite frankly, I can't believe that any run of the mill "Horn fixer"
couldn't do the job. If you can't find a guy who would do it locally, you should start looking for one
out of town to take your horn to, preferably in your car. A simple slide align can be pretty quick,
if all you want is smooth easy slide action. If, however you want a "picture perfect" job, particularly
if your horn is silver, It's gonna cost you a bit more. I would figure on an hour per slide. ???

Good luck and happy honkin'
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby Dan Schultz » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:27 pm

There is NO EXCUSE for a horn to leave ANY factory with slides that aren't properly aligned. If it's been dropped and/or damaged... that's a different story.

Aligning slides as not simple at all. Basically... the slides have to be built with the tubes parallel in all directions. I like to put the slides together with the outer tubes as an assembly and then attach the assembly to the horn.
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Postby Salazarsam33 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:07 am

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Re: Warped slides.

Postby bloke » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:28 am

For whichever slide assembly, I'd bet that the importer/distributor could get you a new slide assembly (raw brass/lacquer/plated/whatever) and - rather than trying to "un-warp" (if indeed that is what that slide assembly is...??) existing tubes.

It may take a few months to get the parts, but that's par for the course (with any manufacturer) for parts other than bits-and-pieces.
Some importers of Chinese instruments (and I don't know about yours) have a "wreck pile" (of instruments that arrived damaged in the destination country) from which they can un-solder rarely-needed parts (such as tuning slide assemblies) and get them to customers.

-------------------------------------------------------------
another point...
I'm quite good at repairing trombone playing slides. My techniques are not the same as most (ex: I don't use those "flat plate things" that many others seem to use), but no - yet I believe them to be superior, my alternate techniques are not "magic". Though I'm mentioning it here, I don't advertise availability for this work, because (well...) there's plenty of work without having to deal with it being shipped in...but the point being here that...

Yes, with (again as an example) trombone slides, I can do some very impressive work, but - once tubes are damaged in any way (whether dented, curved, or ovalled) there is nothing like - assuming well-manufactured - BRAND-NEW.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby Three Valves » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:29 am

Seems like a warranty item...
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby tubazach07 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:30 am

If you bought it new and it came from the factory like that then you should contact Wessex and see what they can do for you. All their new horns have a warranty.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby tbonesullivan » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:13 am

Only real way to fix it is to unsolder the entire slide, and straighten it out. It's kinda common with trombone tuning slides, as it's often easier to make them stick using bad alignment than it is using close tolerances. This also means that if you straighten out the tuning slide, suddenly it keeps falling in, something that I had happen with my Bach 42. Tech had to use a dent ball inside one leg to make it stick better.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby bloke » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:40 pm

tbonesullivan wrote:Only real way to fix it is to unsolder the entire slide, and straighten it out. It's kinda common with trombone tuning slides, as it's often easier to make them stick using bad alignment than it is using close tolerances. This also means that if you straighten out the tuning slide, suddenly it keeps falling in, something that I had happen with my Bach 42. Tech had to use a dent ball inside one leg to make it stick better.


yep.

loose-once-aligned hints at one or the other:

- during-manufacturing FUBAR, with "buffing the $h!t out of" one of the slide tubes having been the decided plan of attack
(either poor assembly workmanship or - more likely - a buffing accident)
- post-manufacturing FUBAR, with "buffing the $h!t out of" one of the slide tubes having been the decided plan of attack
(either dropped or knocked over...with the result being curiously similar to a "buffing accident")
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby Wyvern » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:28 pm

If there is indeed manufacturing fault, then Wessex will sort out. But I don't understand the description of the problem. Are we talking about a slide actually bent banana like (which is what I would call warped), or are we talking about two legs of slide not precisely parallel? If the latter then is it the inner or outer slide (the ones fixed, or slide pulled)? Are we talking of one slide, or multiple? Understanding the problem would determine any course of action.

As the tuba would have been carefully checked at factory before accepting, I am very surprised to hear of any problem - as checking all slides is part of our quality assurance inspection. If slides would not smoothly pull, then the tuba would be rejected.

If any parts are required, then we can pick up from factory during next visit in early June.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby PaulMaybery » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:32 am

When it comes to being precisely aligned so as to make a very easy and light pull, such as needed on the 1st valve, it is truly important for perfect allignment as well as having a bit of lapping done to the slide. That type of allignment, while great if it comes from the factory that way, is not always the case. Even on very high end horns, I have rarely found a "perfect and smooth" slide. I once had a state of the art German (name not mentioned) F tuba on which not one slide was parallel. Part of the issue is often that the crook is not the same fit as the two slides, hence a V effect happens to accommodate the discrpency in the measurement. Yes the slide will still pull, but even with lapping, it would never be acceptable for tuning on the fly. But that is one of the things great technicians do when they "set up" a horn.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby bloke » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:00 am

It's not clear here whether the tubes are curved, whether they are out of alignment, whether they are overly tight, or whether the surfaces are a bit rough.

-----------------------------------------------

Regardless, it takes a lot of time (i.e. costs a lot of money) to build a valveset with a complete set of "perfect" slides...several extra hours. In particular, the (front-action piston valve) #3 slide loop - with its upper slide/lower slide relationship (as they share a common outside slide tube, and the braces/crooks/casing ports all have to "hit it dead on the nose") - takes an extraordinary amount of time to line up perfectly.

As far as the other slides are concerned, making all of them parallel AND non-skew AND lined up with each other (i.e. good AESTHETIC APPEARANCE) takes even more hours.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby roweenie » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:54 pm

:arrow: :idea: :arrow: :idea: :arrow: :idea: :arrow: :idea: :arrow:
bloke wrote:Regardless, it takes a lot of time (i.e. costs a lot of money) to build a valveset with a complete set of "perfect" slides...several extra hours. In particular, the (front-action piston valve) #3 slide loop - with its upper slide/lower slide relationship (as they share a common outside slide tube, and the braces/crooks/casing ports all have to "hit it dead on the nose") - takes an extraordinary amount of time to line up perfectly.

As far as the other slides are concerned, making all of them parallel AND non-skew AND lined up with each other (i.e. good AESTHETIC APPEARANCE) takes even more hours.


This.

(You can't even fathom how accurate this statement is until you try to do it yourself - I had a 3rd valve circuit where it took me easily three hours to do this, and even then, there was a small compromise made on the bottom crook {@ .004-.005} as you are in a large part at the mercy of how the knuckles were attached to the valve set.)
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby tbonesullivan » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:42 pm

With trombone main slides, "warped" is used to describe an outer slide that is not parallel. You can rest it on a flat surface and it wobbles. It's pretty rare to see tubing itself out of round or bent. The weakest part of the slide is the attachment point to the end bow.
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Re: Warped slides.

Postby bloke » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:09 pm

tbonesullivan wrote:With trombone main slides, "warped" is used to describe an outer slide that is not parallel. You can rest it on a flat surface and it wobbles. It's pretty rare to see tubing itself out of round or bent. The weakest part of the slide is the attachment point to the end bow.


Tubing ends up being out-of-round when a very large dent is pushed out by an inexperienced repair-person, or when an extremely large dent is pushed out by just-about-anyone. Out-of-round areas can be burnished to be functional again (never ever again perfectly round), but - when instruments belong to professional players (unless they are some of the rare souls who really aren't distracted by uneven slide action) I prefer to through severely-damaged tubes in the trash and replace them.

I'm very good indeed at repairing trombone slides, but don't boast about it on trombone forums, because the typical respondents will be those who have alienated one or more repair-guys, and
- I can do without customers such as those, and
- (as I've stated before) I don't enjoy unpacking and repacking/shipping instruments - simply to be able to repair them. People don't seem to want to be charged just as much for my time when I'm repacking and shipping as they do when I'm in the act of repairing...and (well) there's a fairly high risk of additional damage on the round trip.
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