Pedal Notes in Community Band

[Ken Crawford]

Fine if done well, and selectively. Community band should be fun, and if having fun means playing a few pedals it should be allowed. The conductor should be respected, but he needs to realize that he isn't conducting the New York Philharmonic and isn't a dictator. I can't emphasize enough that these notes really need to be played well, in tune and with a good sound. They do it in the President's Own, and if its good enough for them it is good enough for any community band.

[Michael Bush]

If you do it rarely and tastefully

This is the key. Don't be that guy that thinks every low register passage sounds better down an octave, though.

[swillafew]

I sat between two gentlemen in a band with three 3 tubas for awhile. I was the new guy, and I was bookended by everything in the folder down the octave all night long in the rehearsals. Our director is a very high profile musician in the area and never said a word about it. I gave them credit for having the chops to do it. I enjoy hearing low notes myself. When I played trombone in the same band, the low notes were noticeable but didn't hurt anything to my ears. Sitting between them was not fun though. Phrasing was out the window, with breathing done at will anyplace, anytime.

[bort]

It depends.

Frankly, if the conductor doesn't want it, then don't play it. If not disrespectful to the composer, then its at least disrespectful to the conductor.

I'm surprised that he noticed at all, which leads me to wonder if it was questionable to begin with. Sometimes the chords just aren't meant to be that "heavy" to begin with, or if the rest of the low brass isn't very strong, then that octave drop leaves a bug gap in the sound. Or, maybe it is perfect, and he just doesn't like it. Either way, it's his band, his call, and you will have to live with it.

OTOH, one time in college, the director specifically asked me to play the entire piece down an octave. Lots of pedal long tone Eb and below. Not sure what I did to earn that punishment!

[Dan Schultz]

I don't like to hear community band members taking stuff down and octave OR up an octave. Most of the time those 'artistic' blasting and farting sounds terrible. What if everybody did it? Play the ink... if you can.

You wanna play low??? join a high-end brass band.

[bort]

Either way, it's his band, his call, and you will have to live with it.

I completely respectfully disagree. It's "OUR" band (the community), not "his". Music is all about interpretation, albeit in some spots subtly or completely off the wall like in jazz. If you cannot exercise what you came there to do (musically and professionally) then why do it at all? Especially when THEY asked YOU to come play with the band. FYI, to top it off the same person in question conducts a Tuba Christmas event as well where 50 or more of the sousaphones are playing pedal B flats every chance they get. How ironic?

Ok, it's not "his band" as in he owns it, but he was put in charge of leading it. The interpretation is up to him. If he asks you to play it all up an octave, that's your job. If he wants only 1 tuba playing in a section and you have to sit out, that's your job too. That is his vision of the band. They didn't ask you to play there to add your interpretations. I'm being a little extreme here, but it's all to make a point -- I realize that community bands have a range of seriousness to them. Again though, it all depends -- on the director, the band, the players. But I still think that if he says no, then the answer is no.

[Donn]

There are a variety of ways to organize a musical ensemble, and for each of us, some are more fun than others, but we don't each get to decide how the ensemble works.

I've played for a couple conductors who I respected a great deal. In that case, I think it's kind of obvious where this situation would go. That seems to me the ideal model for the type of ensemble that has a conductor, and we're really talking about cases that are much less than ideal. My suggestion would be that in such cases, where you don't respect the conductor's judgement, we should consider ourselves to be more or less on the way out. If there's a chance that defying the conductor will bring on a different resolution of the problem, like it becomes obvious that the conductor needs to go, and the rest of the group is on board, then go ahead with your civil disobedience so to speak. But otherwise, you need to accept that you're not OK with the ensemble, as constituted and as presumably everyone else understands it. So leave.

As for playing lower than written ... we may be talking about a couple of things. Not everyone agrees on what we mean by "pedal" notes on the tuba, but most commonly I think, the 1st partial range that's a full octave below the normal low register. And of course you don't need to go there for 8vb. If you're going to play notes other than what the arranger gives you, they should sound noticeably better than the arranger's, and I'm a little skeptical that many players can meet that standard in the true pedal range.

[arpthark]

My opinion: Play the ink. Period.

[Lectron]

My opinion: Play the ink. Period.

That

Also.
Playing one octave down, you also bring all the overtones one octave down.

That includes adding a fairly strong 5th to the cord and a third to the octave that is a multiple of your fundamental.
Not the 12.5 cents flat to make your major in tune or sharp for the minor.

I do it when asked (hardly ever liking the result), and even if the composers knew that fanstatic tubaplayers like me and you existed, I am not sure they whould write those notes 8va Basso

[tofu]

I don't like to hear community band members taking stuff down and octave OR up an octave. Most of the time those 'artistic' blasting and farting sounds terrible. What if everybody did it? Play the ink... if you can.

You wanna play low??? join a high-end brass band.

+1

The conductor is like the quarterback of a football team. If the wide receivers decide they're just going to run any route they please "because it's their team too" you're not going to win many football games. And losing at any level is not fun. This is the problem with many community bands - people think it's their band so they can do whatever they want. Music believe it or not is a team event. I think a whole lot of community bands could play a lot better than they do if people embraced the team concept. It's a heck of a lot more fun to play well and up to a groups potential than it is to make fart sounds because "I can" & "I can do whatever I want because it's all about me".

[Lectron]

Well that settles it, I am cutting off my 4th valve. lol.

Ha ha ha

Ok.....I assume you don't get to play very much contra bass tuba cash register then
Some times it is tastefully and sounds good, but keep in mind the whole chord gets a differend balance.
In what one might should believe, it rarely adds sweetness to the sound. Very often quite the opposite.

High end Brit style Brass bands does it a lot....I am asked to do it a lot.
That includes nice stuff like sub-contra F down to C. Not THAT fun to play really.
Does give an effect, but careful what it does to the sound of the band....
.....and your brain/body functions from severe lack of oxygen

[proam]

My opinion: Play the ink. Period.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Let me ask you this about your band -- do the trumpets take things up an octave often; for example, the last note of a piece?

As a trumpet player I hate that. I have witnessed players drop out three measures from the end so they can rest up and add an un-written note on the end, usually splatting it in the process. If I am in a group where I have any say in the matter I will do all I can to discourage that chord stacking.

I personally have faith in the composer/arranger to have written exactly what they want to hear. Adding notes to the top and perhaps to the bottom, too, can un-balance the chord.

[TheGoyWonder]

wouldn't say NEVER...there are times and they average 1 or 2 notes per entire concert selection. So closer to "never" than anything else. When is hard to put in words...safest when the arrangement & music is kind of ham-y, as opposed to understated. Or right when the music goes from busy to broad. Another indicator, still not always, is if an ultra-bass clarinet is playing the lower octave.

If there's a line going down that bops back up an octave it's usually fine to keep going down. Could be a composer who didn't really know the tuba (most of them) or from the olden days of 3 valve Eb's.

[proam]

The trumpets are too weak of a section to even make that sound good, yet. Being a big Bill Chase and Maynard Ferguson fan I actually think trumpet screamers are pretty awesome, I know it's cliche' to others but it adds the flare that the audience gets a kick out of.

I like Chase and Maynard but the community band version of same I find overwhelmingly brash and out of tune.

"The trumpets are too weak to make that sound good" -- the trouble is, I have never seen that stop them from trying.

"Audience gets a kick out of" -- it has been my experience that the only ones who like the screech playing in community band are the ones doing it.

Please do not think that I am arguing with you, that is certainly not my intention. I am just speaking from my own experience which is apparently much worse than yours.

[proam]

Haha well you're honest. As an audience member for many of the "screech" type players over the years and playing with them I definitely disagree, especially at a Jazz festival..those guys draw the largest audiences (however your thoughts on them are, they are crowd pleasers).

And I agree with you --- at a Jazz festival. But not at a community band concert whose patrons, again, in my experience, have a median age of about 75.

[UDELBR]

When you're a better composer than the guy who wrote the piece you're trying to play, then feel free to 'improve' the piece to your heart's content. Dollars to donuts you're not. Just (try to) play the darn ink.

[bort]

No offense, but adding a third sounds like a dreadful idea.

[Mark]

When you're a better composer than the guy who wrote the piece you're trying to play, then feel free to 'improve' the piece to your heart's content. Dollars to donuts you're not. Just (try to) play the darn ink.

+1

[Mark]

When you're a better composer than the guy who wrote the piece you're trying to play, then feel free to 'improve' the piece to your heart's content. Dollars to donuts you're not. Just (try to) play the darn ink.

I know what sounds better coming from the tuba in certain places, does that count? I should have prefaced with the fact I actually DON'T play very many pedal notes, if any at all. I just add them in here and there on last notes in a section of 4 or more other tubas to balance the foundation and IF the dynamics allow for it. I won't even try it at less than a group MF. I'll also add a 3rd in sometimes because that also sounds great at select times, even had the same conductor compliment the section a couple times on how great we played that last piece. In this case, he picks his own battles and poorly I might add.

What this thread makes me think is that you need to find a different band to play in.

[UDELBR]

What this thread makes me think is that you need to find a different band to play in.

+1 Common saying in NYC back in the day: "Get yer own band if you want to improvise."