Thin sound

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thejester10276
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Thin sound

Post by thejester10276 »

I have an issue I have been trying to work on with my tone production; it sometimes feels like there's no real depth to it or substance behind it. I have looked at several Arnold Jacobs 'almost live' videos, and while incorporating the various breathing exercises, not letting the tongue interfere, and so on into my practice routine has helped, I still feel that they alone are not enough. I run through standard warmups and excerpts; long tones, 3 octave scales, orchestral excerpts, snedecor and bordogni, etc., and then whatever music I am working on. This is often accompanied by free buzzing and sometimes mouthpiece buzzing, as well as singing the part to hear it in my head. My goal is to create a sound that can fill a room, sounding full and resonant and being able to feel the vibrations, with a dark timbre. I can hear it in my head but I feel when I try to play it still sounds pinched. I think the sound concept is not the issue, but more of a physical thing. Any advice? Although I don't think it's my equipment, I currently am playing on an Eastman 632 and am switching from a bach 18 ('goto' mouthpiece I've had for several years that's been OK) to a laskey 30h.

Thanks for the help! :tuba:
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Re: Thin sound

Post by PaulMaybery »

Just thinking here of some of the things you did not mention that might be a part of all this.
Your equipment, that is the tuba and mouthpiece are fine.
I'm not sure of your age relative to the "gool ol'" aging process where muscle tissues begins to reduce.
This might effect stamina in relation to how long you can hold onto your optimal embouchure.

Other factors as keeping the corners firm and also keeping the mouthpiece up off of the teeth thus letting the wind be responsible for a stronger sound not pressure around the rim.

I recall years ago working with the Claude Gordon "systematic approach to daily practice" where he advocates resting the chops for an equal amount of time as what you are playing. Hence a 3 minute etude gets 3 minutes of the mp off of the chops. And then say at the end of a half an hour taking an equivalent 30 minute rest. The same aspect applies in body building where you take a pause in between sets, or work on different muscle groups.

Other things that are a bit more physiological are simple dehydration where there is less blood getting to the chops. Diuretics or just not drinking enough fluid can contribute.
High blood pressure can have a similar effect in restricting blood flow.

Steven Mead mentioned a rather unusual comment about "scrunching" the eyebrows, nose and sinus area. Doing so seems to add a nasal or pinched quality to the sound. Keeping the face relaxed is important.

With the equipment you have, a nice normal breath blown back through the horn, with all systems relaxed and not tense, should be the beginning of a good sound. Assuming that you can buzz a good sound on the mouthpiece.

I know one brass player who suffered nerve damage to his chops, and pretty much his sound is airy and little meat to it. Having taught in college for 30 some years, I also noticed in the fall during marching band that many players suffered in the tone department due to abusive muscle fatigue. Thin tone, double buzzing and loss of range were the obvious results.

Tone development is a very personal thing and there are so many factors that are all interconnected. Sometimes there may be one factor that has been present since the beginning that has never been detected. Even so, remedial efforts can take months and even years of patience to get to optimal playing. But it is worth the effort and getting professional help is a wise move, just as long as it is followed by smart practice.

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Re: Thin sound

Post by windshieldbug »

Another member of the "TNFJ" here...

Try moving your lower jaw foreword as you play lower with a directly forward airstream.

Works for me, but as bloke says, YMMV.
Likely only an in-person evaluation from a knowledgeble teacher will help.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by thejester10276 »

Thanks for the replies. I have a teacher who I have been working with for some years now, but he's been away for nearly a month and I thought I would take a shot in the dark and ask the members here. I'm going to see him soon though so I will ask him about it. I thought it might be self-diagnosable, but I guess there are many other factors at play that I never realized :shock:

Regardless I am still going to try the methods listed here.
PaulMaybery wrote:
Steven Mead mentioned a rather unusual comment about "scrunching" the eyebrows, nose and sinus area. Doing so seems to add a nasal or pinched quality to the sound.
Oddly enough, this was a problem I used to encounter in my playing, specifically in the sinus area. It also used to happen in the neck area (no idea why), but I have learned to for the most part get rid of them. It may still be an issue so I will try to be more conscious of doing it.
windshieldbug wrote:Another member of the "TNFJ" here...

Try moving your lower jaw foreword as you play lower with a directly forward airstream.
I have always heard it as angling your airstream down into the mouthpiece, but I am going to experiment with that as well.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by Will Jones »

I'm not in the "bigger is better" club: for embouchure, throat, or anything else. When I practice long tones, I practice for efficiency: using the minimum air to get the maximum sound. Concentrating around MP, so I'm not gassed or busting my own chops up. Often times, getting more efficiency means opening your mouth and throat more. But maybe not. fuss around in all regards, and try looking for max efficiency. Open the chops a hair, close them a hair. Open the throat a bit, relax back to normal a bit. Raise the toungue, lower it a bit. More-less lips in the mouthpiece, etc. It might be a brighter sound than you expect, but I bet it's also more resonant. Same approach, but try breath attacks for a few minutes every day.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by swillafew »

If you can play 3 octave scales, you play a lot. If you don't like your sound, you might need to tune yourself up some. In tune sounds tend to sound full, and out of tune less full. Once or twice a year I need to make an honest man out of myself and play with a reference pitch. Buzzing along with the melodies on the radio will do in pinch.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by imperialbari »

Bug & bloke mention technical aspects of the whole concept of head and body resonance.

An optimized body resonace filled with a steady airstream will create a richer sound, because many more overtones are given room to sound.

Loosen your belt, lower your diaphragm, get rid of as much muscle tension as at all possible, maximize your throat and mouth volumes.

A good tuba teacher will be able to help you and so will a good vocalist trainer.

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Re: Thin sound

Post by MaryAnn »

Well....someone I know, who is a fine oboe player and a fine saxophonist, took up trombone a few years ago. She sounds like all holy crap although she has a great range, is musical, and plays in tune. Because she is using "oboe air" on the trombone, meaning....it sounds like it has a pillow stuffed in it, all the time. She does not have anything resembling a resonant tone.
So this member of the TNFJ would give you an exercise to try: Take a note that is easy for you, in the middle of the range. Instead of your usual long tone that you do, instead try a long tone in which you go along a continuum where one end is "the most chops and the least air as possible to get the pitch" and keep going gradually to the other end, where you are using "the least chops and the most air as possible to get the pitch" and I bet you find resonance in there somewhere. When I had my friend do this exercise, she DID get a resonant tone at one point, but she said "I don't like to play loud" and that was the end of that.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by happyroman »

I think you are on the right track, but it is hard to improve if you are focused on too many things at once. I will almost guarantee you that your so-called thin sound is due to a combination of two things. First, the embouchure needs to be long for the tuba. Think of a contrabassoon reed as compared with an oboe reed. You need as much lip surface as possible vibrating as you can, given your personal physiology.

If you look into the cup of the mouthpiece the circle that is formed can be thought of as the globe. The longest possible embouchure would be at the equator (i.e., the opening between the lips is half way between the top and the bottom). Through trail and error, you will find the mouthpiece placement that works best your you. Just keep in mind that you want the longest possible embouchure that works for you personally. The main point is that you need to do whatever is necessary, in terms of placement, in order to sound great. If you sound great, the embouchure will learn what it needs to do to create the sound you have in your head.

Second, you must provide sufficient fuel (air) to the lips to sustain the vibration. This means you need to start with full lungs and use the air freely. Once you get to about a third of a tank left in your lungs, replenish the breath so that the lungs are again comfortably full.

We need to maintain an open oral cavity so that the air column supplied to the lips is thick. Think of a fire hose as compared with a garden hose. We keep the oral cavity open by keeping the tongue low in the mouth by using the low vowel sounds, OH, OOH, and AHH and stay away from EEE or IHH. To feel the difference, hold the back of your hand close to your mouth. Say OH and then breath in and out so that you feel the thick air against your hand. Then say EEE, and do the same thing. You will feel a big difference in the air movement against your hand because the tongue is very high in the mouth when you say EEE. This cuts off the air and makes the sound thin. Imagine a tuba that sounds like a human voice singing while using one of the low vowels and imitate that. Keep in mind that we are not designed to control the shape of the tongue by feel. If you try to lower the front of the tongue, the back is liable to fly up, and vice versa. However, using the low vowels works very well. [Note: When playing, you only think the vowels, you do not actually vocalize them].

It will take time to get used to this, and you will need to focus on easy music when practicing your tone quality at first. Long tones are great as are simple melodies in legato. Play at a middle dynamic of mf or f, and start in the middle register where it is easiest to play. As you develop excellence in the norms, you can transfer that excellence to the extremes in terms of range and dynamics.

When working on your sound using long tones, it is best to hold the notes for four to eight seconds. Whatever you do, do not stop and start over of the note doesn't sound good right away. That is actually teaching yourself to sound bad. During the learning process, it is not important if the note doesn't sound good at the beginning. But it must sound good in the middle. Hold the note as long as you can comfortably while focusing on making it sound great the longer you hold it. Over time, it will start to sound good right away. This is Mr. Jacobs philosophy that bad notes can be made into good notes, silence can't.

The other thing you can do that will help your tone is to learn to play on the mouthpiece alone. Use plenty of air, in the middle register at a middle dynamic, and play simple tunes you know well (not drill forms or random farting noises, as buzzing has sometimes been described in the forum, LOL).

I won't go into more detail here, but there are a lot of threads that discuss buzzing, and I have contributed my thoughts in several of them. If you want more detail, it will be easy to find my posts using the search engine. I will just say that buzzing on the mouthpiece has been the single most helpful practice tool that I have personally ever used. But, like anything, it must be done correctly to be of benefit.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by thejester10276 »

I realize now my initial post was fairly vague for what my problem was, so I discussed it with my teacher recently while he could watch me play. The two things he had me do was lower my jaw, and think of the 'OH' vowel when playing to allow more airflow. He also had me lip buzz a low C as full and with as much air as possible to the point that it was right on the verge of cracking, and then to sustain it. My pitch and stability when trying to buzz in this fashion or play on the tuba has been all over the place having just recently started doing this, as it is a very significant change in my embouchure that I have never played with before, but I am making a more concerted effort to try to keep my facial muscles relaxed and use a proper proportion of buzz to air as he put it as well during my playing. Combined with the responses here, I can already hear an improvement, because after making all the facial adjustments and once I can center the note on a long tone, I can really feel the vibrations and even see objects in the room shake slightly. It is something that will probably take some time, but I'm glad I have found solutions to my problem.

Thanks for the responses, they've all helped!
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Re: Thin sound

Post by Leland »

thejester10276 wrote:I can really feel the vibrations and even see objects in the room shake slightly.
Cool. The first time I played a tuba at home, the LED channel numbers on our TV went all wacky. I took off my glasses because I thought they were shaking, but even without them, the numbers did the same thing -- so my eyeballs must have been vibrating like eggs of jelly.

Let me ask this:

WHERE are you playing?

I'm bringing this up because my formative years of tuba were spent in drum corps (outside 95% of the time) and in a church quintet (where we played under a real, live, fire-breathing pipe organ). Nobody who's sat next to me has accused me of having a thin sound, and I think those early years had a huge influence.

If you're playing at home or in a small practice room, can you find a bigger venue? Maybe go borrow a church or a school band room?

I used to spend many of my college practice sessions in the band room, on the recital hall stage, or outdoors if the weather was nice enough. Nobody's going to attend a concert held inside a practice room, so why should I tailor my sound to a practice room?

One thing I didn't do back then was use ear plugs. Dr. Winkle (who co-authored The Art of Tuba and Euphonium with Harvey Philips) offered the idea as a means to temper the sheer noise of playing tuba in such a tiny space. I'm sure it would have helped, but I had the luxury of being able to practice at odd hours when the music building was mostly empty.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by thejester10276 »

I'm practicing in what I would call a living room. I occasionally am able to practice in an auditorium, but whether or not it is occupied changes day-to-day. I understand the eyeballs vibrating; it's an odd yet satisfying experience (unless the music becomes too blurry :) ). Although I usually practice there, I sometimes practice in my room which is smaller and great for recording without echo, a band room I have access to (along with the auditorium), and sometimes (if there is no other alternative at the time) in *very* small, thick wall practice rooms that contain 90% of the noise within it. Obviously, playing in a 5x8 ft or so room is not nearly the same experience as playing in an auditorium, so I spring for it when it's available.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by k001k47 »

Too many words to read.

The air is too pressurized inside the body, or the embouchure is suffocating the air stream and is pinched closed. Strive for weakness in the body (even though forcing it may feel contradictory), and Good luck.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by happyroman »

thejester10276 wrote:I realize now my initial post was fairly vague for what my problem was, so I discussed it with my teacher recently while he could watch me play. The two things he had me do was lower my jaw, and think of the 'OH' vowel when playing to allow more airflow. He also had me lip buzz a low C as full and with as much air as possible to the point that it was right on the verge of cracking, and then to sustain it. My pitch and stability when trying to buzz in this fashion or play on the tuba has been all over the place having just recently started doing this, as it is a very significant change in my embouchure that I have never played with before, but I am making a more concerted effort to try to keep my facial muscles relaxed and use a proper proportion of buzz to air as he put it as well during my playing. Combined with the responses here, I can already hear an improvement, because after making all the facial adjustments and once I can center the note on a long tone, I can really feel the vibrations and even see objects in the room shake slightly. It is something that will probably take some time, but I'm glad I have found solutions to my problem.

Thanks for the responses, they've all helped!
One important thing to be aware of is to focus on how you want to sound and allow the body to respond in whatever manner works best for YOU. Things like lowering the jaw should be allowed to happen in order to produce your finest quality of tone. Do not focus on what the "meat" is doing to create the sound. That is putting the cart before the horse. Most people who focus on the physical maneuvers overdo the mechanics aspect. You will find that if you maintain your finest tone throughout all registers, the physical changes will be more subtle than if you focus on stuff like lowering the jaw.

That said, for many players, as they descend into the lower register, the jaw drops and moves forward and the air stream is blown more straight outward. As they ascend into the upper register, the jaw moves up and in, and the air stream is blown in a more downward direction. However, as I said above, these things should be resultant and not causative, they shouyd be allowed to happen and not forced to happen.

Keep buzzing melodies in the lower middle register at a moderate dynamic while maintaining the OH vowel shape/sound and you will experience rapid improvement.
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Re: Thin sound

Post by MackBrass »

thejester10276 wrote:Thanks for the replies. I have a teacher who I have been working with for some years now, but he's been away for nearly a month and I thought I would take a shot in the dark and ask the members here. I'm going to see him soon though so I will ask him about it. I thought it might be self-diagnosable, but I guess there are many other factors at play that I never realized :shock:

Regardless I am still going to try the methods listed here.
PaulMaybery wrote:
Steven Mead mentioned a rather unusual comment about "scrunching" the eyebrows, nose and sinus area. Doing so seems to add a nasal or pinched quality to the sound.
Oddly enough, this was a problem I used to encounter in my playing, specifically in the sinus area. It also used to happen in the neck area (no idea why), but I have learned to for the most part get rid of them. It may still be an issue so I will try to be more conscious of doing it.
windshieldbug wrote:Another member of the "TNFJ" here...

Try moving your lower jaw foreword as you play lower with a directly forward airstream.
I have always heard it as angling your airstream down into the mouthpiece, but I am going to experiment with that as well.

If you have been with the same teacher for several years maybe you need to think about moving on to someone else? As Bloke stated, without seeing and hearing you in person no one can tell you what to do as its just a stab in the dark. Maybe you just need to change your practice habits and focus on your weaknesses? I don't know, without seeing you in person it's impossible to say. If your ever in VA look me up and i will fix you right up.
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