Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

The bulk of the musical talk
Post Reply
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by imperialbari »

IMG_1063.JPG
The very exposed B-natural-to-F glissando in Bartok’s Concerto for Orchestra was written for an F bass trombone. It cannot be played as a true glissando on a 2-valve Bb bass trombone.

I don’t know the name of the player in the photo, but the instrument is the bell from a single valve Bb bass trombone fitted with an Edwards double slide that turns the open bugle into the pitch of F.

As the shifts are of the same length as on an alto trombone in F due to the double slide, I have a strong suspicion that this slide has a length allowing for more than 7 positions within the reach of a normal right arm.

One may say that this is a costly solution for one very brief excerpt, but I have wondered, if it actually could be a shortcut to a contrabass trombone in F for players already having a Bb bass trombone that they like.

The bore would be narrower than the bore of the real contrabass trombones in F, but wider than the widest British basstrombone in G, the Imperial with a valve in D or in C. And the valve slides of some Bb bass trombones, like of my King 7B, could be pulled to act as C, respectively Db, valves on the F version with a double slide. That should make full chromatism down to pedal F possible.

One potential problem would be whether the octaves and fifths of the open bugle would be sufficiently in tune with themselves. Also whether the slide positions would be reasonably predictable between the partials.

I haven’t played my Pfretzschner alto trombone in F as musch as I have played my Eb alto trombones, but the shorter shifts should be manageable.

Main problem might be whether Edwards will make such slide with a stub fitting the receiver of my King 7B.

Klaus
User avatar
PaulMaybery
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 736
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:10 am
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by PaulMaybery »

Very interesting and a possible DIY shop project. Needed would basically be two additional Bass trombone slides (so as not to destroy the orgingal) some generic braces, and 1 extra crook to connect the two at the top. I might just try this. (sure as I really have the time) BUT ....
Wessex 5/4 CC "Wyvern"
Wessex 4/4 F "Berg"
Wessex Cimbasso F
Mack Euphonium
Mack Bass Trombone
Conn 5V Double Bell Euphonium (casually for sale to an interested party)
DHMTuba
bugler
bugler
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:36 am

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by DHMTuba »

I don’t know the name of the player in the photo, but the instrument is the bell from a single valve Bb bass trombone fitted with an Edwards double slide that turns the open bugle into the pitch of F.

As the shifts are of the same length as on an alto trombone in F due to the double slide, I have a strong suspicion that this slide has a length allowing for more than 7 positions within the reach of a normal right arm.
I think the player in the photo is Gerry Pagano, bass trombonist in the St. Louis Symphony. If you have any questions about the instrument I'm sure you could contact him through the Symphony.
HTH
Bob Kolada
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:57 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by Bob Kolada »

"As the shifts are of the same length as on an alto trombone in F due to the double slide, I have a strong suspicion that this slide has a length allowing for more than 7 positions within the reach of a normal right arm."

Don't forget you're losing length with the extra slide crooks.


I think people can rent that slide by itself from someone, I've seen it other places.
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by imperialbari »

If the single valve solution with a moveable slide, then rather the one used by Ben van Dijk of the Rotterdam symphony orchestra, who uses a second, geared, trigger to extend and release the valve slide.

At least my bass trombone valve slides would have to be polished down, if they ever should have a mobility approching that of a hand slide. And that would make them useless for normal playing unless a system of slide stops were mounted.

Thanks for telling who the player is!

Klaus

PS: Another double slide solution for the said glissando was used by the late bass trombonist of Pittsburgh, who played it on a Conn BBb contrabass trombone. Of course as a 3rd partial gliss rather than as a 2nd partial gliss.
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by imperialbari »

Bob Kolada wrote:"

Don't forget you're losing length with the extra slide crooks.
But then you have to add length to the slide to compensate for the bell section being shorter than on a true F contrabass trombone.

At least if you don’t use the F-attachment to achieve the pitch of F in the first position. I am not sure about that matter, but I tend to believe the valve is not activated for that purpose.

Klaus
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by bort »

User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by bort »

There was also this Thein Bartok trombone on eBay recently. So what if it's missing the main tuning slide! :shock:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thein-034-Barto ... 2444594425" target="_blank
User avatar
imperialbari
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 7461
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Edwards solution to the Bartok B-natural-to-F glissando

Post by imperialbari »

[quote="bort"]There was also this Thein Bartok trombone on eBay recently. So what if it's missing the main tuning slide! :shock:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thein-034-Barto ... 2444594425" target="_blank" target="_blank[/

This is the model that Ben van Dijk uses.

Klaus
Post Reply