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Roger Bobo and Tommy Johnson deliberately played in a way that would make the needle move when being recorded. It's interesting that once digital recording decks took over, Tommy started using bigger, warmer sounding equipment (not always, of course). Another big factor is that they were taught by Robert Marsteller - a trombonist - in addition to there not being a ton of different horns a person could get easy access to in those days. Due to their consistency, ergonomics and great 'functionality' (fast rotors), Miraphones ruled the roost.

It was quite a schism for me, because Floyd Cooley and Tommy Johnson played and taught in an absolutely opposing manner. I liked studying from both of them, and I've have had to work out a middle ground for myself. Floyd was much more of the 'wind and song', Arnold Jacobs school. And speaking of Mr. Jacobs, you can certainly hear him fine on the old Kubelik/Mercury recordings with the CSO.

I found Wesley Jacobs pretty easy to hear on Detroit Symphony recordings, although I'm not sure when he began there. And, of course, Chester Schmitz blew the roof off in Boston. He makes quite a sound throughout the Ozawa/BSO Mahler cycle (that's digital, though). Although it was a somewhat smaller sound, I also found Ron Bishop pretty easy to hear in Cleveland.

I'm quite certain that John Fletcher was the first to use a 6/4 size tuba in a London orchestra and - OF COURSE! - he absolutely blew down the building in his recordings with the LSO, especially the Andre Previn/EMI ones. The rest, as they say, is history.

I'm not sure I'm addressing your post here or not.

Well sure; of course you're right, herr Bloke. But here's a very interesting comparison that you make yourself. Listen to Nielsen 4 played by Roger Bobo with Zubin Mehta/Decca from the early or mid '70s (I think), and compare that with Floyd Cooley playing the Holton 345 CC (SFS/Blomstedt/Decca). It's a very interesting comparison. They're completely different, yet they both 'work'.

Bobo is using his Miraphone 186 and a C4 type mouthpiece (wide and shallow). He's more-or-less 'punching' his way on to the tape with lots of clear articulation. That recording was made in the warm and somewhat 'intimate' acoustics of Royce Hall (UCLA). Floyd's sound is, of course, more 'luxurious' (for a lack of a better description). Perhaps he's more 'string bass' like, as you've pointed out. Yet, he's pretty clear as well (digital recording). His recording was made in a much bigger hall, naturally.

Two different approaches in two different eras under different circumstances (acoustics). I heard Bobo a couple of times in the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion and, quite frankly, he was difficult to hear. Where one is seated always makes a difference too.

barry grrr-ero wrote:It was quite a schism for me, because Floyd Cooley and Tommy Johnson played and taught in an absolutely opposing manner...Floyd was much more of the 'wind and song', Arnold Jacobs school.

Although this thread emphasizes "being HEARD" prominently, it is apparent when listening to performances by students of Floyd Cooley how much he concentrates and how diligently his students work on playing very softly with control of sustained tones and attacks.

In spite of the 'punchiness' of the old L.A. school, those guys could sustain very softly as well, believe me. I will dare to say that it was a different aesthetic built upon a different set of premises.

I'm not real familiar with the current crop in L.A., but certainly Jim Self can play as softly as anyone.

I like to believe that on those rare days when I'm satisfied with how I sound, I'm bridging the two schools I studied under. I believe there's real validity to what I learned from Tommy Johnson. He could get a great sound as well, but it was achieved through different means, intended to satisfy different acoustical and professional circumstances. Tommy was a real mensch.

. . . then again, I was crazy enough to be Claude Gordon's only tuba student in those days! That certainly built chops.

Listen to how much edge he gets on the Kraft "Encounters"; or, listen to the first set of loud, short notes in the Hindemith sonata. That's what I'm referring to. Certainly he could sing - he wouldn't have been a thoroughly professional musician if he couldn't have. But I heard him live in recital. He could also place and 'punch' short notes, and he could get quite an edge when he wanted to. They called him the Heifetz of the tuba.

Tommy could quickly get quite an edge as well. Both of them could punch short notes about as short as you could possibly make them. Tommy told me that he referred to their methods as the, "school of clarity". I can make short notes too, but nothing quite like that (except when I work at it).

What level of credit or blame do you place on the recording engineer with respect to microphone placement and final mixing and mastering? A lot? A little? None?

Having been on the fringes of the recording industry for a long time, I would say that every element and every aspect of the recording chain effects the outcome. The acoustics of the hall has an awful lot to do with things as well. In short, everything is a factor.

barry grrr-ero wrote:I would say that every element and every aspect of the recording chain effects the outcome.

Yep, that's exactly what I was getting at.

Comparing players or even orchestras as a whole via recordings doesn't tell the whole story as it's never an apples to apples comparison. All of those variables matter as they do effect the outcome.

On the subject of Jake's approach, the observations made here are certainly accurate but the "big attack and softer sustain with vibrato" aspect of his playing was near the end of his time with Chicago. If you hear him on vinyl on the Kubelick Legacy recordings (one mic over the conductor's head) his sound is full and sustained. As well as the Reiner recordings, Nielson4 with Martineau, Russian Easter and Khatchaturian 3 with Stowkowski, right up to Mahler 7 with Solti. Also, the Chicago Brass Ensemble quintet with Herseth, Shilke, Cowden, and Crissafulli as well as the Chicago, Philly, Cleveland recording. Many of these recordings have been rereleased on CD and IT AINT THE SAME. They are remixed or at least,for whatever reason, they sound different. His later stylings, I believe, were due to health issues, I understand he had COPD, and he adapted to keep the job. Bear in mind the relative length of his and Roger Bobo's tenures with their respective orchestras. Jake hung on into his seventies while Roger left at a relatively young age. We didn't hear him grow older. f you can get ahold of the vinyl of any of the recordings I've mentioned I think you will be surprised. All the Best, Ed

Just gotta confirm everything Ed just posted. He basically gave me a proper education in orchestral tuba playing with the recordings he laid on me as a youngster and the conversations we had back then. I realized that I was standing on the shoulders of dozens of players from the previous 75+ years...and hadn't in fact come up with some new type of ***-kicking orchestral tuba playing.

I can't possibly repay him for that. Thanks Ed!

Let's face it. Regardless of what their approach might have been, we're talking about the best of the best. Considering that Jacobs recorded the VW in his 60's (70's ?) and - allegedly - during a single rehearsal session only, that's pretty darn amazing!

First orch. recordings I heard with present tuba were Chester Schmitz with the BSO/BPO. Still amazing to this day