Lacquer Or Silver?

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Donn
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Re: etc...

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote: After a few years (with repaired solder joints) those GREY instruments become GREY and BROWN...
That's the look for me! Brown (or yellow) spots aren't essential, but there's nothing I like better than the grey color of a silver plated brass instrument that's been in service for many decades.
  • new silver plate: ridiculous
  • new lacquer: nondescript
  • old lacquer: shabby
  • raw brass: maintenance nightmare
  • old silver plate: gorgeous
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by GC »

You can find many, many silver instruments that are over a century old and still have most of their silver plating left. You find almost no lacquered instruments that old that are anything left but raw brass. It's unlikely that you'll be around after a century to appreciate the difference. If you want to restore an ancient instrument to like-new condition, it'll probably cost less to buff and relacquer than replate.

Chipping and peeling lacquer or bright brass get ugly very quickly but are cheaper to repair than fixing worn-through silver. Cleaning silver is irritating and must be done fairly regularly. There are products that extend the time between cleanings. Satin silver is gorgeous but can become an ordeal to clean. Some people's skin oil causes smudges on silver on every use and the smudges can quickly become very unsightly if not wiped off daily. Lacquer has less of a problem.

Choose your poison. There's no finish that doesn't require care. I've often wondered why more manufacturers don't offer an transparent, long-lived protective coating over silver. I've seen a few (very few) antique cornets with lacquer over silver that still look great, but their owners say that they've been retreated periodically.
Last edited by GC on Sun May 28, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by TUbajohn20J »

Lacquer! Way easier to take care of. Just wipe with pledge and a rag and good to go!

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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by Uncle Markie »

I've had both. Now that smoking is banned pretty much everywhere but Nevada a silver-plated horn is more viable now because they don't turn black after one night's gig. Years ago gigs in NY jazz joints, banjo parlors, etc. the air was so blue with cigarette smoke you couldn't see the other end of the room - mercifully that is now gone. I actually experienced shining up a Conn 38K - going though three cans of "Silvo", taking it to the gig at Your Father's Mustache and seeing it turn black after one night on the job. Yuck.

My 1933 Martin bell front was re-lacquered 30 years ago with epoxy baked on clear and still looks great; my 1926 Martin upright, which was lovingly restored and replated in bright silver by its previous owner cleans up nicely with Hagerty's spray silver polish, a variety of rags and patience. My Conn 5J has the Conn-Selmer gold lacquer, which unlike my old Kings has not turned orange yet.

If plated properly (I've seen some posts about bubbling silverplate on the imports here) and you can afford it I would go with bright silver. There are few places that properly re-lacquer a tuba anymore and the prices are high enough to start you hunting for a new axe. The satin silver (bead blast finish) is tough to maintain although it looks wonderful when you first unpack the horn. I would go with bright silver.

Since I live two blocks from the saltwater of Sandy Hook Bay, and a half a mile from the Atlantic Ocean "raw brass", "brush finished raw brass" tubas are a non-starter for me - if left out of the case with the windows open for a couple of days they start to look like the Statue of Liberty!

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Donn
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by Donn »

Cigarette smoke will sure make your stuff stink, but I wonder if the blackening might have come from something else that's less perceptible but more notably reactive with silver. Mainly thinking of sulfur dioxide, which does occur in tobacco smoke but also in the exhaust from gas appliances and furnaces. There might have been a kind of high point when when people were getting used to being able to go out and not smell cigarette smoke but there were still smoking and non-smoking sections. If they were serious enough about it to crank the ventilation up enough to keep the stench isolated, that would have also pulled out all the indoor sulfur dioxide. Anyway, furnaces and gas kitchen appliances are likely better ventilated now than they were 50 years ago, on the average.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by bort »

I have never bought a new instrument, and with used horns, "you get what you get." So, I have owned some silver, and some lacquer. I probably wouldn't buy a new tuba in silver plate.

I think lacquer with nickel silver trim and accents is a really good look -- the contrast looks really classy to me. Silver is shiny, but it's monotone and you lose that contrast. Unless of course you get silver with gold trim... but I think that looks terrible almost all of the time.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by MaryAnn »

Troll or not, I have a silver NStar and my friend has a lacquer NStar. Neither of us, admittedly amateurs, can tell any difference between how they play. Playing his was the reason I bought mine. I love the look of silver and would have bought mine no matter what it was, but mine is prettier than his and so there.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by GC »

I believe you're referring to your observations re: nitrocellulose lacquer. --- Bloke
Yes. I've only owned a couple of century-old silver instruments and two raw brass oldies, but I've watched other folks' horns for a while. Nitro finishes that are intact after a century are as rare as hens' teeth.

I 100% agree with the epoxy vs nitrocellulose observation. It'll be a while before epoxy horns get into the century-old category. Epoxy finish was a brilliant idea.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote:Epoxy lacquered Indiana-made C.G. Conn and California-made F.E. Olds instruments, now, are into their 6th decade.
Those that have not been hit, smashed, or cut-into (i.e. scratched) still sport a new-ish appearance.
I'm surprised to see Olds brought up as a good example, as their tubas seem particularly prone to a hideous sort of acne, little pink/red spots all over. Though maybe not quite as bad as the Bach versions of the same tuba.
GC wrote:Nitro finishes that are intact after a century are as rare as hens' teeth.
To be fair, isn't this partly because they were rare even in their day? With raw brass accordingly much more common back then. I'm not saying nitro is a durable finish, just questioning the statistical inference.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by Will Jones »

Euphonium players tend to play silver. No idea why. But I like it, even with tarnish. My toddler put a hand print on my bell and I refuse to remove it.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by PaulMaybery »

Ah! It's Saturday and Perfessor Mabes has had too much coffee and is in story telling mode.

So:
When you look at some of the european ceremonial military bands, there is a penchant for uniformity. In those cases a band seems to go with all silver or all lacquered brass. So with that reasoning you might say it's about "cosmetics"

For orchestra players, we tend to be, well a nice way of saying it is, rather individual. With that thinking, a silver tuba among a herd of lacquered trombones, is strikingly "individual."
(so you might also use the "cosmetic" reasoning here)
As I recall my first witnessing of that silver tuba was when I attended my first CSO concert and saw Jake with his big silver York. The other top orchestra guys, using most rotary tubas, were playing on lacquered or raw brass which gave a consistent color to the brass section.

It may have been Hirsbrunner, but I remember when you ordered certain models, they were only available in silver. That may have been the Yorkbrunner.

Silver plate was very popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and gave rise to the term 'Silver Cornet Band' With a bit more engraving, often satin silver with gold highlights and a gold bell interior, you had stunning instruments. Nickel silver often played as a substitute for silver. If I recall correctly, the CSO York was built along the lines of a band instrument, so it logically sported a satin silver finish (since replated as bright silver)

There is one more silly bit of reasoning called "psycho-acoustics" in which a player believes the horn plays a certain way because of how it looks. Silly though it may seem, players are often influenced by the visual when it comes to how they style there personal sound. (Fat sounds from large wide bowed BAT tubas and more compact sounds from tall skinny ones.) The danger in thinking like that is stereotyping or pigeonholing an instrument, when in reality tubas are much more flexible that that.

As a side bar (Oh! How I digress)
Putting all the onus on the make up of tuba rather than the player, takes some of the fun out of our playing when we consider the various colors and stylings we can apply. The difference between say Wagner and Berlioz comes to mind. Air speed, the shape of the notes, placement of the tongue and then just knowing that there is a difference between French and German style (in just about everything - food, wine, clothing ...) can make a big difference.

I recall in lessons with Jabobs where he would have me play just simple scales and style them like different composers. Damnation of Faust, Meistersinger, Tchai 4, Shost 5, Brahms 2. when he played for me I could name the composer right on the spot. I don't think at that point any consideration of lacquer or silver ever came up. Close your eyes and what does it sound like.

But whether it is "psycho-acoustics" or "cosmetics" (or even real acoustics) I like silver. And if you stay on top of it, it is really not that hard to maintain.

Now if we can find the proverbial "silver" bullet so we never miss a note, then we'll have something. In that case silver is a big deal.

Have a good weekend.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote:Ugly red spots in large (sure: epoxy) lacquered surfaces can easily be the result of
- existing scratches and cuts in the lacquer from careless handling
- the instrument finds it way to a shop due to even more careless handling
- a repairman solders some broken joints - struggling to support the instrument at the best angles for soldering
- that same repairman ends up with soldering acid ("flux") on their hands, and - while handling the instrument - that acid finds it's way into many of the existing scratches and cuts in the lacquer
- the instrument is wiped off before handing it back to the customer, but the acid has already found its way underneath the lacquer, and surface wiping doesn't remove it
For example (as I mentioned, the Bach version particularly excelled at this)
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by J.c. Sherman »

In every case opportunity I've had to play test lacquer vs. silver on a tuba, I've always preferred the playing of the lacquered instrument.

YMMV.

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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by Donn »

It's an insidious effect - amazon.com, walmart.com et al. have basically shut off the market to hog farms in the US, where everything must be purchased through amazon. Accelerating the already familiar Canadian bacon trend, since Canadians' difficulties with ridiculous parcel costs make them less likely to consider acquiring a hog farm in that manner anyway.
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Re: Lacquer Or Silver?

Post by J.c. Sherman »

bloke wrote:
J.c. Sherman wrote:In every case opportunity I've had to play test lacquer vs. silver on a tuba, I've always preferred the playing of the lacquered instrument.

YMMV.

J.c.S.
I'll report the very same thing, here, but I tend to credit the instruments, rather than their coatings.
Even a 100% positive relationship (as we both know) doesn't indicate cause/effect.

100% of the times I've gotten really sick, I went to a store and bought something within just a few days previous to contracting an illness. :D
You're - of course - correct. I don't have experimental data... but I do have a strong correlation.

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Principal Tuba, Firelands Symphony Orchestra
President, Variations in Brass
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