ID another manufacturer

[bnloewen]

Postby bnloewen » Fri May 26, 2017 9:32 am
You guys were very helpful with my last ID, can I try another one? This one is an auction, description is a tuba, but it looks more like a baritone, with a bent curved bell. Three valves, rotary. There is no brand name on it, but this is the marked engraving. Can anyone please ID this engraving?

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh5 ... mxmpkv.jpg" target="_blank

[bnloewen]

Wow, lots of views but so far nobody has commented. Is anyone able to ID this marking / engraving?

Thanks

Barry

[bnloewen]

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh5 ... zhwad.jpgv" target="_blank

Here is one of the entire horn.

[edsel585960]

Looks like a Wagner tuba but I have no clue on the makers marking.

[bnloewen]

Thanks. It does look a bit like a Wagner, but the Wagner photos I can find all have vertical main tuning slides, and this tuba has a horizontal main tuning slide. Did Wagner make one with a horizontal slide?

I thought the logo might be MP, and could be a vintage MiraPhone logo, but I can't find anything that might confirm that.

I also thought the logo might be RM, and could be a vintage Rudolf Meinl logo, but I also can't find anything that might confirm that.

It might be a Wagner, but the tuning slide is throwing me off.

Does anyone else have any suggestions?

[Heliconer]

Wagner Tubas, are actually Wagner TUBEN. A left handed instrument of similar shape, with a french horn receiver and an identical range.

It is NOT a tuba.

[imperialbari]

Interesting expertice outings above here.

This instrument is a low end German Bariton. Low end alone from the number of valves, which is never less than 4 in good instruments. At least Alexander also has made 5 valve models.

The term for a Wagner Tuba is, surprise, Wagner Tuba. Tuben simply is the German plural form of Tuba. Hence no single instrument may be called Tuben. That form takes at least two instruments.

Anyway Wagner Tuben come in at least 4 distinct forms. Originally Wagner used a set of 4 Wagner Tuben with 2 being in (tenor) Bb with same acoustical length as the single Bb horn (same length as a Bb tenor trombone). The other 2 Tuben were in F with the same acoustical length as an F tuba. I have seen photos of a very small number of Wagner Tuben with only 3 valves, likely for military usage, but the orchestral repertoire calls for 4 valve instruments.

The original Wagner Tuben basically were conversions of existing brasses. The Bb Tuben were mirrored Bb German Bb Tenorhörner fitted with horn type leadpipes. The F Wagner Tuben were mirrored Bb Baritone with extra cylindrical tubing inserted to take them to F. They also were fitted with horn type leadpipes. Since that origin Wagner Tuben tend to come in slightly narrower ovals and with higher set leadpipes than usually seen with the original Bb ovals still known from the band sphere.

Wagner Tuben are considered tough to play in tune and tough to play with an even sound. Some think that too little research has been invested in them to optimize their acoustics.

Two hybrid forms have been developped. Full double Wagner Tuben in Bb & F with 3 main valves and a shift valve like with double horns. And compensating double Wagner Tuben in Bb & F with an airpath similar to that of a 3+1P compensating euphonium.

Both versions basically are Bb single Wagner Tuben with extended valve systems. Players out of the original German tradition stay away from these hybrids, because they miss the the point of distinct sounds for the Bb and the F Wagner Tuben.

The Chinese made Wagner Tuben flooding eBay and other outlets all are compensating double instruments.

The attached photo shows my own Hoyer Wagner Tuba in F. It has a non-standard Stellventil (set-valve) sitting in the 4th slide crook that allows the 4th valve loop being converted from a fourth to a tritone. With a bit of a pull of that 5th slide low Bb concert may be played in tune with 245.

Its leadpipe doesn’t look very highly set, but this instrument is quite tall. I play it on a playing stand, which allows me to use the 5th valve as a dependent long semitone valve.

Klaus

[Donn]

This instrument is a low end German Bariton. Low end alone from the number of valves, which is never less than 4 in good instruments.

Do you think it could be a Tenor, if we were to draw such a fine distinction?



Cerveny CTH 521


(Note that the mystery horn is wrapped tighter.)

Seems kind of silly to put a 4th valve on a tenor horn. If it has become the rule, perhaps wasn't so inevitable when that one was made. Though I suppose you're right that it's a low end instrument, just from the look of it, and anyway who ever made a high end tenor horn?

[imperialbari]

Of course the proportions are skewed somewhat by the horizontal tuning slide making the wrap more compact. Still my immediate sense of the top bow bore and of the bell stack volume point towards a Bariton, even if it is not a Kaiserbariton of extra big volume.

The proportions have changed since WWII, where Tenorhörner were very narrow and Baritone were that much narrower that one modern maker jokingly said that these old Baritone hardly would count as Tenorhörner today (as if they hardly would be fat enough for at modern Tenorhorn). I think he exaggerated the bore development in that remark.

At least one German maker now makes very compact Tenorhörner for kids, but they are much more compressed than the instrument causing this thread:

http://jestaedt-instrumente.de/?grid_products=modell-70

I have a faint memory of David of Bielefeld making compact oval instruments with horizontal tuning slides. I will have to look that up.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

My memory of David of Bielefeld was wrong.

Clemens August Glier of Markneukirchen (the Protestant branch of the Catholic Klier family known from brass mouthpieces) made this compact Tenorhorn:

IMG_1365.JPG

Lindenbrügger of Ummeln made this one:

IMG_1366.JPG

Both have horizontal tuning slides, both are much narrower than the instrument of this present thread, which I still think is a Bariton (German names and declinations used through my posts of this thread to keep terms clear, where attempted translations just create confusion. Which is very easily done):

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

Klaus