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I'm playing in a community band with three other tuba players and I need some advise on the proper way to tell one of the other players that he need to tune his horn and adjust the tuning slides. I tried last week and meet total resistance from the other player. He claims that he has never needed to adjust the tuning slides on his horn because he knows how to alter the pitch with just his embouchure. He takes good care of his tuba and makes sure the all the sides are pushed in all the way... all the time. I have never played a tuba that is in tune with the sides all the way in, after all, that's why they have slides. We are presently playing several pieces in sharp keys, not normal for most community bands, and I have been fighting the pitch within the tuba section. I am used to telling younger students how to listen and adjust, so I am not used to dealing with someone, an adult, that totally resists the concept. I don't want to offend him and make an enemy, but I also want the intonation to be better. We are playing a whole concert of Gershwin music in a month and the key signatures are all over the place. Lots of keys that I haven't played in for a long time. Any advise on how to get the point across painlessly?

There is no painless way to get the point across. It doesn't sound like this person will listen no matter what you do, but you could try bringing in a tuner and suggesting that the section tune up to it before rehearsal. Maybe if he sees that he is out of tune to begin with he will at least do something with the main slide.

Another option would be to talk to the director and have him/her mention something during tuning up or playing. For example, if he were to stop in an obvious section and say something like "can I hear the tubas play that section?" and have him suggest that the other player is out of tune, if he hears it. If the player gets p'd off and leaves, you've solved the problem.

You can always put a tuner on the stand and leave it on. When you get a chance have the person play the suspect notes with the tuner on. If that doesn't make them change then you are pretty much hosed.

You might mention this to the conductor, and see if she/he can pay special attention to the problem, have a general band tuning (to something other than Bb), section tuning, or something similar. Get someone in authority to use that authority instead of creating bad karma on your own.

"Hey man, wanna borrow my new tuner?"

.... no one plays any scale exactly in tune. it's just a listening game within your section. you can always lean over and say "hey, let's tune some notes".

may be true..but this guy "thinks" he's in tune. You could tune notes with him all day long and he will think he's fine. The tuner has no oppinion and is not judgemental. If he is 50 cents off from every one else this will tell it in a way that is undeniable.

In these cases, you have to find someone whose "opinion" matters to the guy. He doesnt care what you think. You need someone that he will listen to...

Honestly, if he doesnt respond from others, what would be best would be to have him removed from the ensemble. Yes, I know its a volunteer group. But, you have enough tubas, and anyone who does what they want for their own selfish reasons doesnt deserve to be playing with 20-40 others who are doing their best to play as an ENSEMBLE.

The slides are there for a reason. If our horns were supposed to be 100% "pretty" they wouldnt be there?

I bet he wears gloves when he plays too eh?

Dean wrote:I bet he wears gloves when he plays too eh?

No, they get in the way of the top hat and tails...

We have had the same issue with sections too. I mentioned some off tuning to a member and he replied 'yeah, I'm probably out of tune; I don't usually tune' and then he proceeded to keep sitting there for the rest of the rehearsal like that. Being a new guy I didn't want to be seen as someone coming in and trying to act like a know-it-all, but c'mon, it's tuning! This is part of playing music just like pushing the buttons down and counting rests.

I brought a tuner in, made a big production of getting it out and using it and casually said the other guys could try it. They did and it worked out a bit. It still doesn't make up for someone who doesn't listen to their pitch while playing. Just because you tune to B flat doesn't mean the tuning process ends!

Also, the idea of mentioning this problem to the director is very good and absolves you of getting the stink eye from other section members.

snufflelufigus wrote: and if the section doesn't jive where they don't want to tune then go find some other folks to play with.

How do you get two violin players in tune? Get rid of one.


That's not a suggestion. This topic just reminded of that old joke. Or was it supposed to be oboe players? Oh well.....

Later,
K.

Bandmaster wrote:. . . . We are presently playing several pieces in sharp keys, not normal for most community bands, and I have been fighting the pitch within the tuba section. . . .

Also, don't ignore the obvious. Make sure that all players are using the correct fingerings for those sharp keys. Perhaps the section would want to get together 30 minutes early before rehearsals.

It might be a good idea if you suggest a sectional so you can address "some problems" within the section's playing. Be general so he does not feel singled out. I've found that intonation is ALWAYS more apparent when the rest of the band (and their individual variations of "in tune") are out of the equation.

When it is heard by all (and it will be) that there are serious intonation issues, casually whip out the tuner and have EVERYONE check their pitches. After a while of this it ought to be apparent that his notes are all over the map. Then tune each note by ear with someone (not the offender) having the tuner on their stand and the others have to go by ear. Hopefully your comrade will realize that he has problems he is not addressing/cannot address by lipping.

What is the conductor doing here? I'm still learning to play in tune and I usually get dirty looks from conductor when I'm really off on something critical. I've seen conductors go one by one with the tuner through tubas and saxophones....

What kind of daily practice exercises would help him find out he has some problems?

Can you take the whole section thorugh the steps needed to tune each valve so as to get the best set of compromise slide settings?

I think the conductor should do more in this case.

Being politic can go a long way. Instead of saying "You're out of tune", try this:

"I've been listening and I don't think we're lining up on this note. Let's see if we can adjust things to get into better agreement."

No "you're wrong' stigma attached. Works pretty well.

A bigger problem is that few community band players know how to tune--they just fiddle with slides and honk lots of loud long tones. That's where a little education might help out.

JohnH wrote: If you're lucky, it's only one major @$$hat in the band and not one in every section.

John... I'm not familiar with South Carolina slang. What's an @$$hat?

Joking aside, some guys just can't hear what they are playing and might swear that they are correct. However, since we sometimes have as many as six tubas in our community band, it gets pretty convincing when someone has intonation issues. Perhaps between tunes one of the tuba players might ask all to play a G... something besides the mundane Bb.

I've played in many community bands in my 14 years of playing tuba I have just recently had to experience (especially in the last 5 years) playing in many different levels of community bands and orchestras as well as semi pro bands and a regional orchestra. It's been interesting too look back at it. Really, we all have the some of the same issues, including that of people who can't, won't, don't, or are unable to tune (among other things). There are many ways to deal with it but there are a few things we need to keep in mind. Community bands, while being an ensemble of amature musicians trying their best to sound good, serve a purpose to bring the pleasure of playing music to adults as well as perform for the local community for fun. Agreed, it is frusterating when you're working your butt off to sound as good as you can and having someone not seem to care, but the reality is that guy's probably there because he likes playing the tuba and is having fun. I've also seen some of the most stuck up attitudes in community bands as well. I remember the community band that I grew up in being pretty rough around the edges (putting it nicely) and there were many people who stayed in the band (adults) while I went off to school to earn my BM.

I came back to the band to sub (a favor to my dad who has been so supportive in my persuit of a music career) and I actually had people in the band talking down to me because they were so consumed in thinking they knew what they were doing the couldn't accept the fact that this 'kid' they knew might be right about a musical playing suggestion to the conductor (which was promped by the conductor, I wasn't being a know it all). I remember talking to my dad about it later and he had said that word had gotten around of what I had accomplished in my time away (as well as the current credentials) and the next time I got out there I got a few appologies. (He also emphasized that I was aspiring to be a full time pro musician and the people in that band are not, so if they're happy playing bad, it doesn't always hurt to let them just have fun.) Basically, there's people like that out there so if you like playing in the community band scene you may need to find a way to ignore it and hope it will work itself out (remember, you may be serious about it but he probably isn't). You do have other options, you know, I played in a community college band during highschool for a bit because I was not satisifed with the level of the community band. The college band wasn't perfect either, but it was at a high enough level that I felt satisfied from playing.

There have been many good ideas posted about how to remedy your situation. One I might add is prehaps have a tuba field trip to some sort of masterclass setting or prehaps arrange to get the 'local pro' (someone this guy might respect) to come in, because I'd imagine if he noticed, he'd say something. I remember last summer I subbed one evening with one of the semi pro bands I used to play in regularly because I found out that Marty Erickson was going to be performing with the band. During the rehearsal Marty made some wonderful playing suggestions to one of the younger members that had often resisted my advice in the past and he immediatly responded to Mr Erickson (it didn't hurt that he blew us away with his playing before hand). Don't know if this is something you could do, but it was a thought that occoured to me as I was reading.

The only other thing I would suggest is put someone with a solid tone and good intonation with his bell in the direction of that player (preferably next to him) If he has any sort of an ear at all, over time, he may either realize the issue or start to fix it.

Is he an old man? I don't mean to jump on 'old people' but I played for many years with a retired army and navy band tuba player (he retired from one service as a tubist and joined another) he was pretty on top of things when I started playing with him in the semi pro band but as time has gone on his intonation has gotten worse and he has a difficult time hearing it. Fortunately for the other band people he's stepped down to the community band scene because he's realized that his hearing is going. Too bad there aren't more people like him.

Sorry it's so long... I just kinda started typing and things kept coming to mind. It happens. Hope you can take something from this

Good luck

Jim Langenberg

The "weak link syndrome" rears it's ugly head often in music politics.It all comes down to how serious the ensemble is.If it is a group playing for fun,you try to let the weak players stay on.But in a group trying to "make it",the stronger players lobby to remove the weak one and when he goes,someone else is on the bubble,to go next.Too much of this will destroy morale,loyalty and the spontaneous fun and fellowship in the group.I am believing,at my late age,that fun may be more important in my music than fortune and fame.This does not rule out hard work but if it is really fun,it's not work.

Here's something that has worked in our brass quintet.

Several of us commented early on that we were noticing intonation problems without pointing fingers (not a bad strategy, considering any one of us could be the problem at any given moment). When we notice a particularly out of tune stretch, we comment on that. But probably more importantly, when we hear something played in tune, we comment on that too. It just makes everybody more conscious of tuning on a consistent basis. One player, who was often playing flat, has really improved over the past 6 months. I think playing in tune is learned, including learning to pay attention.

i play in a community band where i am at least 25 years younger than everyone else. i find myself at times with the same problem.

politeness is the key to fixing the problem.

a tuner on a stand may work.
when confronting a problem always look at it as "what am i doing wrong". bring the attention to the members, but insteading blaming them simply ask "how can we fix it?" you will find a lot more cooperation in getting people to work with you if you don't point out their faults.

Step 1. Establish your own credibility as the better player. This may take a while even if it's obvious to you.

Step 2. Make sure the pitch you want makes sense within the harmonic structure of the music. This will frequently be different than what the tuner says.

Step 3. If you are the newer player in the group, recognize that you are not in the role of being the section's policeman. If you are the section leader, then you can mention something, but only if you have completed the first two steps. Respect can only be earned, not demanded.

Step 4. The point of community bands is to provide people an opportunity to play music. It is not to provide people an opportunity to demonstrate musical superiority over their mates. If you are better, a little humility will go a long way. If you are not as good, a little humility will go along way. You knew this already, of course.

Step 5. Bands all have people who will not, or cannot, recognize their own issues, regarding particularly intonation and keeping time. I have trouble hearing pitch myself, and I've been playing tuba for 35 years. I can recognize the pitch of others more easily than my own. At the moment, I'm the better player in the section. But it has been the case, and recently, that I've been second-best of two. When I talk with the folks in my section now, I keep reminding myself that being the better player in the section is not a position I'm used to, and I've been the beneficiary of benevolence by better players my whole life. Give some back.

Corollary: Say a much better player than you showed up for rehearsal, and immediately started complaining about something you do. How would that make you feel? How would you want that guy to try to bring you up to his level?

Step 6. Provide an excellent example of playing in tune.

Step 7. If, in the end, you can't tolerate it, and if the player in question represents the norm of the group and has been there longer, then leave. The first most important qualification for being in a community band is commitment. Sections frequently have players who are returning after years of not playing. They will get better--give them time. It took quite a while for me to get my chops back, and 20 years later I still feel like I'm getting my chops back. If you have been the one who has demonstrated commitment and if the other player has no ability or willingness to improve, then consult with the conductor and the leadership of the group. In most groups, living with it will be the response. But the conductor might program music that challenges the section enough to encourage the fellow to seek alternative playing opportunities. But in the end...

Step 8. Any strategy must, at its root, acknowledge that anyone who wants to play in a band should be allowed to.

Rick "who has seen groups fall apart because of wars over dealing with poor players" Denney