Tuba to bassbone

[NeilD]

I have acquired a bass trombone and am seriously working on doubling with tuba. Many aspects are surprising, I expected to play better in the low range but find the opposite to be true. I find that the smaller MP such as Schilke 58 work better than large (Bach 1G)in both ranges. I would like to hear a bit about the strategies other tuba players have used in approaching this doubling situation. By the way, it sure solves the problem with confusion over similar fingerings!

[Jeff Miller]

I found the same things to be true when I started doubling.

I think many tubists make the mistake of trying to use their tuba tone production techniques on the bass trombone. I tried using a tuba rim on a small cup. I found that to make it sound even a little like a trombone, I was having to change practically everything about my face and my breathing.

I eventually realised that the secret (for me) of sounding like a real bass trombonist was to use the mouthpiece and production technique that have been evolved for the instrument over the past few hundred years.

As tuba players, we will tend to get a fuzzy, unfocused sound on a trombone. Using a large mouthpiece (either a hybrid or a large bass trombone mouthpiece like a Shilke 60 or a Bach 1G) will only serve to accentuate this problem.

By going the other way - i.e. by using equipment and concepts which tend to make the trombone sound smaller and brighter - we can begin to reign in our tuba-like tendencies and shape them into an acceptable bass trombone sound. After all, a tuba player using small equipment will not sound like a trombonist using the same equipment.

I really feel that it makes more sense to change the interface to the instrument and keep your physical and mental concepts as constant as possible, rather than using the same equipment and being forced to change everything about our production and concept.

I now use a Holton TR180 and a Bach 1 1/2 GM mouthpiece, and feel that the sound is much more rewarding than the Edwards and larger mouthpieces I was trying before.

Jeff

[smurphius]

i started formally learning the bass trombone this year at school and it's definately not the tuba that i'm used to. as mentioned in the previous post, you can't try to use your tuba tone, or else you'll have trouble with the middle register for sure. i personally use a shilke 60 versus a pt50+ tuba mouthpiece. both are large for the instruments, but work for me. each person's mouth is different though. you'll find that once you get accustomed to it, that your low register will tend to use a tuba embeture and then kind of slip into a trombone embeture (am i even spelling that right? oh it's so late!) one thing for sure, you'll have lower chops than most of the trombone players who went down to bass. work on that, and show off your chops!! best of luck!!

[Leland]

Ditto for me.

I can't play trombone like a tuba, and vice versa. If you want a characteristic trombone sound, play it like a trombone.

The problem I had with low notes was that I would try to play too low, distorting my embouchure in ways that just weren't efficient.

Just practice on the fundamentals on the bone, and things will begin to fall into place.

[WoodSheddin]

Hey Everybody! (Awesome Board, Mr. Chisham)

STOP CALLING ME MR. CHISHAM!!!!!! making me feel like an old man

[NeilD]

Thanks to all for the supportive advice, it's always nice to have confirmation from others who have gone down the same path. I didn't aim to get a tuba sound but can see how easy it is to apply what you have been doing to the new instrument. I also will follow my own advice and find the best teacher I can early in the game. NWD

[Leland]

STOP CALLING ME MR. CHISHAM!!!!!! making me feel like an old man

okay, Pops...

*ducks and runs*

[Lee Stofer]

I played tenor trombone and euphonium before I switched to tuba as a major, so I think I had an easier time eventually picking up bass trombone. When I double, I consider tenor trombone, bass trombone, upright bass and electric bass to be completely separate instruments, and do not try to play one as I would play another. I try to apply the same to tubas. When I pick up an F tuba, I consider it to be as much of a different instrument from CC tuba as a euphonium is a separate instument from CC tuba.
I find that I have to work a bit harder in the low range of the bass trombone, to play well and to maintain the characteristic sound. The three things that helped my sound the most on bass trombone were 1) finding the right horn/mouthpiece, 2) playing Rochut etudes 8va basso and tuba etude books as written, and 3) getting to play a lot in good groups. You can work on it for years in a practice room, but you really need to also get out and perform to develop into a real bass trombonist.

[GC]

I played a fair amount of bass bone in college as a doubler, and I tried a dozen mouthpieces before I settled. My biggest problems came when I used mouthpieces that were bigger than my lip muscles could handle. With the Bach 1G and 1 1/2G, I couldn't get any edge on the tone; the tone was all bottom with no character, and it was extremely difficult to play high. Mouthpieces that were in the tenor trombone size range didn't allow enough lip motion to get any body in the sound in the low register. I finally settled on a Bach 3G. It gave good low range, allowed me to have a decent characteristic tone, and didn't kill my high register.

[Tom Mason]

A lot of people have mouthpiece size envy in the bass trombone world, some tuba players. As a tuba player who happened to accidently do his grad school work on bass trombone, I agree with the overall direction you are getting from everyone so far.

My only addition would be that as you progress in your bass bone playing, you will find that your embouchure will adapt to the difference between mouthpieces somewhat over time. As this occurs, you might find yourself wanting to float to a larger bass bone mouthpiece in order to get the differences smaller.

As I began playing bass trombone, I had already established a tuba embouchure set with a regular conn helleberg. I found that using the Schilke 58 or 59 was my best shot for helping focus sound while still having a large enough mouthpiece for low range. As I got into more bass bone, and less tuba, I ended up using a firmer embiouchure, and was able to move to the Schilke 60, so that I could darken the sound a little, and get some more flexibility in the low range.

After4 or 5 years of playing back and forth, I realized that I was liking the darker sound and flexibility, but the core to my sound was not as present as it should have been for a trombone. I met up with Mr. Doug Elliott at an ITA convention in Nashville, and he set me up with my current mouthpiece. (mix between a wider than Schilke 60 rim, a 59/60 cup, and a 59 ish backbore/shank).

I guess that the short version of this is that in the beginning the smaller mouthpiece is the way to go, but be willing and ready to change to something larger if your playing situation/sound dictates a different timbre.



Tom Mason

[porkchopsisgood]

I switched from a Bach 1 1/2 G to a Schilke 60 and never looked back.

It was the most helpful thing for my playing: I was able to play the horn more openly, and consequently, louder, with a more characteristic bass bone sound. I used the mouthpiece on two different horns: a Yamaha dependent (I don't know the model number), and an Edwards Standard Model Bass Bone. It worked very well on both.

I'm sure mileage will vary from person to person, but I like the setup!

Yours,

Allen V. Carter
porkchopsisgood
avcarter@temple.edu

[Leland]

I was using a Schilke 58 on a large Conn, and a friend's 60 was a lot of fun to use, too.

Of course, when I was using a King 2B tenor, not even a 51D sounded or tuned right -- I just used a 7C instead.