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Would another player whose sound differs a lot from yours describe the sound of that horn the same way? If so, then you're likely onto something.

I found that some of the late-1800's saxhorns got a very warm sound without really wide tubing and big bells. But I also felt the same way about the late lamented Yamaha 103.

bloke wrote:COULD it (simply) be "less than 3/4 inch diameter bore sizes in their valvesets" ?

There are current production examples of such, right? Kanstul 90 is .689/.710/.734, but I assume the point is the first number.

Smaller bore is really saying two things, though.
1. Really smaller diameter, early in the bugle
2. Shorter leadpipe, hence smaller diameter where the valves are installed

If we neglect that 2nd point, are there any small bore rotary valve tubas?

bloke wrote:When people point out where in a tuba a valveset is located, they tend to present it as a static feature - where none of the valves in it are ever activated, and none of its cylindrical tubing is ever added to the instrument.

Does it matter? If there's a significant effect there, wouldn't a tuba - that Kanstul for example - sound significantly different on G with 1&3, instead of open?

The valve section is such an acoustic catastrophe, though ... maybe the way to think about it, is as multiple systems that fit together, for example
mouthpiece/receiver |> leadpipe/valves |> conical bugle |> bell flare.

In that picture, indeed it might not matter so much how long the leadpipe is - the "conical horn" acoustical properties come exclusively from the bugle after the valves, and your key factor there with the leadpipe+valves would just be the exit diameter of the valve section. (Which might suggest that adding a larger bore 4th or 5th valve would be significant to overall tone.)

Wow, after reading the title "secret to a 'warm' sound", I thought this thread would be about resonances achieved by a well trained tuba player who listens to the whole ensemble and room

My old Conn Geib had the warmest sound of any mouthpiece I have owned. About 100 years old, and also a small bore.

Great sound, but incompatible with my playing style and needs.

I do miss it, though, and would buy another one, given the chance.

bloke wrote:I tend to offer less credit to materials, and more to shapes.

+1

Small-bore/short leadpipe rotary exist. Well minus the small bore, lots of stubby/short-model type designs have a shortish leadpipe. What about large bore/long leadpipe piston? Never seen a piston tuba with curving long leadpipe along the top bow as archetypical rotaries do. Now THAT would be a frankenhorn.

TheGoyWonder wrote:What about large bore/long leadpipe piston?

Does tuning slide before the valves count?

I do not know the answer to your question Joe, but I will comment that my old Buescher (the Dr Suessaphone, which has the bell you sold me) also has a very "warm" or "soft" or "smooth" sound. I have used it this summer with the Reading Pops when we have played some outdoor concerts; the sound is like butter and blends with the basses incredibly well, but it has very little "edge" to the sound when I want to get a little "brassier" sound.

I have tried a few different mouthpieces. I ended up using an old Sellemansberger Solo 1 one piece. the first model you made. it is shallow and cup shaped and gives a little more definition to the front of the sound. (If that description makes any sense.) don't know why the horn has that sound however. I just figured maybe it was due to the old, leaky valves (although I do not know if they leak all that much to be honest).
kk

Brand?

Model?

BBb?

Thanks!

French Besson, which likely is why I didn’t recognize it.

Klaus

Just reading older posts over coffee break; is this germane to the discussion? - http://www.rickdenney.com/the_tuba_sound.htm" target="_blank I find it very interesting - 1 player, 2 different tubas, very detailed analysis. I enjoy Rick's page, and would enjoy if he'd compose further!
Tim

Occurs to me while reading "Rick's" overtone analysis, that while it's certainly fair to compare two different types of tuba in terms of whether their sound is pleasing, and why ... it might be worthwhile to occasionally recall that the tuba isn't a solo instrument, it's a component of an ensemble sound, typically the bass component. If modern tuba designs don't sound as "warm", maybe some of that is progress, depending on how it supports its role in the ensemble.

The other thing that I noticed is that he brings in another term "deep", along with "dark" (and "warm"?) I assume these are all different things, though apparently not really independent. (An anecdote on his "sounds deeper" notion - I played the same note for people on a tuba and a bass trombone, and to their ears, they were clearly different notes, the tuba note apparently being an octave lower though it most certainly was not. I don't know if that really supports his theory, but tonal analysis of those two tones might.)

Sadly, my impression is that dark/deep/warm gets even more complicated when you compare tone at widely different pitches, rather than just Bb below the staff as he does; as you go up in the range, the audible tonal effect is different even with the same frequency distributions, so I'd guess anyway.

AIR

There has been at least one American tuba built with a large, long leadpipe and with large-bore pistons - the J.W. Richardson model Holton BBb. Looking suspiciously like an Alexander 164 kaiser with a York piston valveset squashed into the middle, the leadpipe is essentially the same as that of an Alex 164, leading into an .810" bore 4-piston valveset. The few in existence not normal-sized in any way, but play quite well, and the sound could be considered warm.

But, back to the OP, I think that the secrets to a warm sound with a 4/4 size tuba are;

-Good player, possessing requisite skills, concept of sound, good ears and resonant sinus cavities.
-Good tuba, which is a good fit for the player, with the following;
- good metal, worked and hardened appropriately for that type of metal
- good assembly at factory, where joints are well-fitted and completely soldered, with plenty of well-placed braces
- good condition, meaning that it is clean and properly adjusted and regulated, no leaks and little, if any dents.
- good mouthpiece, meaning one that is truly a good bridge between the player and the instrument.

I'm not sure that I understand the post. Is it referring simply to the tuba as possessing a warm quality in its sound? Or, is it about how does one achieve a warm sound, (as on say a Kaiser) on a small tuba. Actually, and we all should know this, the tuba by itself does not make the sound. But I do understand that certain older tubas do offer a "sort of foggy" sound. But I always thought that had to do more with leaky valves. At least one York Monster Eb that I had in my hands, had a charmingly warm sound, and after the valves were rebuilt it played totally differently. Very much like a more modern Eb with a tighter sound and much much more focus.

In my little "book of tricks"(And here's where I assume most of you know this) a warm sound can be generated by keeping the tongue low in the front of the mouth and tonguing behind the lower teeth. (Almost forming the sound of "Though") When the tongue is released a very wide column of air is sent over then chops and into the horn. Keeping the face and nose relaxed and of course the chest and being able to send the air without straining all add to what I call warmth of the sound. Doing the opposite of all this, even on a Kaiser or BAT may not get a warm sound, but rather a more strident tone with little gravitas or ambience. A warm sound is in my mind about 50% concept and 50% production.

Knowing what you actually project when you do what you do always help.

I also think the concept of a warm sound goes along with a "round " sound. We have to train our ears to understand the sound we want. Listen to your tuba hero, listen to the sound and imitate that sound. Now I do play a 100 year old York 6/4 and it has the sound I like. But I can get the warm sound out of almost any horn I play. I will take a students 186 to prove the point that a warm rich sound can come from their horn too. Because of that i feel that the sound in your head is as important as the horn your are playing, if not more so.

It is said that Pop Johnson of York factory fame, used to have the receiving department suspend each sheet of brass stock that came in to the factory. He would hit it with a leather hammer and tell them to mark it for tuba bell, if it met his standards. I've heard that from two sources.