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I was just reading the other thread and in my 30 something years of playing and teaching i have necer heard of this terminology before. Where did the term upstream and downstream come from, what does it really mean and who really uses the terms and why?

Not trying to spark a part 2 of the thread as my questions are legit. I have studied with some of the best in the world and have played with many pros over the years but never once did these two words ever come up. Are these real or are they words used to make someone sound like they have a lot of knowledge about something?

I do think that Donald Reinhardt is commonly credited with the expression "upstream and downstream". I have heard his concepts expressed differently from several of my teachers but especially Canadian tubist John Griffiths. He had an out of this world high range ability and described air in terms of size, direction, and speed. His book the "Low Brass Guide" is worth seeking out. In 2008 it was still in print but I don't know if that's still the case. I remember him telling me that these concepts were passed to him via his teachers Robert Ryker and Abe Torchinsky.

Best,
Tom

lost wrote:Hi Tom,

Its more of a diagnosis I think for people who have problems with range/tone etc. If you or anyone for that matter sounds great, I doubt anyone would need to know about it.

+1

Ace

Knowing how an embouchure functions is useful for much more than a diagnosis.

There is no reason for this topic to be discussed in secrecy. Knowledge isn't bad, particularly for teachers. Once understood, it is easy to apply.

Knowing how to play, and also how to get out of a period of embouchure trouble is a valuable thing. Many natural players run in to trouble in middle age, and aren't able to figure things out on their own. Wind and Song (I love and use it) doesn't fix bad chop mechanics.

Many teachers do not adequately understand how the embouchure functions. From personal experience and observation, many teachers tend to teach the way that they themselves play. When a student tries to imitate their teacher, but does not possess the physiology to make a particular embouchure type function in the long term, disaster can result. This is possibly the cause of many claims of "focal dystonia." (Quotations used to indicate that not everybody with a chop breakdown has focal dystonia. It could be simply the result of playing on an embouchure type that doesn't work for a given player.) In the trombone world there is a particularly famous teacher who has had many successes, but also has produced many students who have ruined their playing careers by trying to play the same way as this teacher.

Check out David Wilken's website for videos on embouchure function. This one in particular details Upstream vs Downstream.

http://www.wilktone.com/?p=12" target="_blank
For a very efficient explanation, talk with Doug Elliott. He has this down to an easy-to-understand science. I've watched him apply his techniques to over 25 students in person and saw noticeable and quick results with every student. (It would now be up to the students to continue working on the ideas Doug gave them.)

Last note that might impact tuba players: tuba mouthpieces are so large that some players may not have enough room below the nose to play using their ideal embouchure type or mechanics.

Hmmm..... Thank you for you kind words. I don't know who you are, but I guess I must know you somehow...

"Upstream" and "downstream" are simple descriptions of which direction the air goes out of the lips into the mouthpiece. In most of the range in any brass instrument, one lip tends to be slightly in front of the other. For most of the population, the top lip will be more present and direct the airstream downward while doing most of the vibrating. A small percentage of the population has a combination of teeth, lips, and jaw structure that ends up playing upside-down of that configuration, with the bottom lip dominant, doing the most vibrating, and directing the airstream upward inside the mouthpiece.

This is useful to know when combined with more knowledge about the two distinctly different downstream embouchures and the upstream embouchure, and a more complete understanding helps solve playing problems or prevents issues from starting.

May people approach playing a musical instrument as they do their life. Everyone lies somewhere on the thinking-doing continuum. Sometimes overthinking something can be helpful, other times detrimental. Like.... ummmmmmm a golf swing.

I just happened to run across a pretty close up video of Gene Pokorny playing and it looked like he was playing upstream. I know of a lot of famous upstream trumpet players, but not any well-known upstream tubists until I saw Gene. Beautiful sound, by the way, but you knew that.
royjohn

lost wrote:Mudman, I don't think anyone has called this a secret subject. As a teacher of students in the public schools, this has been in my tool bag for students who have tone and range problems.

In my opinion, threads start going off the rails when people start stating information that wasn't supplied and stating their opinions as absolute facts.

Yep, but why visit an internet forum if not to talk about stuff?

It would be beneficial if more teachers knew about things like the Jacobs approach, Caruso, and Reinhardt, and if they knew how to apply these tools. It is all too common that big name teachers only teach the single approach that works for them. Many problems could be avoided with accurate knowledge.

I guess the "secret" comment relates to teachers and players who shut down discussion of some techniques that work well for others. I wish that more of my teachers had been adequately able to address embouchure function. As I've found later in life, extreme range is actually easy. It doesn't just belong to a lucky few. This relates to a discussion of embouchure mechanics. For me, all the Wind and Song in the world did not unlock a screaming high range. (But I still use many Jacobs techniques--something that players in other schools of chops may dismiss due to lack of knowledge outside their favorite technique.)