OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk, then

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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by barry grrr-ero »

When I conduct, which - granted - is not very often, 'tuning' is down my list of priorities. Talking about tuning is meaningless UNTIL everyone is playing TOGETHER with the right notes, right rhythms, right dynamics and right balances. When people LISTEN and get these main priorities correct, they'll generally adjust their tuning in the process. Blowing correctly in a semi-relaxed manner fixes much of it too. As concerts go on and the air gets warmer, the pitch starts climbing. Many players need to be reminded of that fact as well.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by barry grrr-ero »

Yes, but do you have a blunt snout?

https://annoyzview.files.wordpress.com/ ... sphinx.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks to Paul Mayberry's encouraging words, I'm gonna at least 'test drive' that Cerveney 632, if and when it arrives in L.A. If I fall in love, I'll be asking every member of Tubenet to make a $20 donation to the grrr-ero cimbasso fund. I promise I won't play the "Stars & Stripes" at you . . . maybe "Stella by Starlight" or "I'll Remember April" instead.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by quesonegro »

Mark wrote:
bloke wrote:I will reemphasize that the Rudy copy that Tom is willing to order is very easy to play in tune (minor #1 slide trigger movements).
What fingering are you using for the A three lines below the staff?
I use 1,2,4 with trigger to make it flatter...have it tuned to give me Pedal Bb on 1,4

//Mattis
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by Mark »

bloke wrote:fwiw, I have not found a too-short combination (trigger or no) that is any less too-sharp than 2-3-4 is too-flat. Everyone makes their own judgements.
I suspect that the cimbasso that Mattis is using is a much better quality.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by Donn »

Have I not seen them in a bell-up, top valve configuration, looking just like a starved tuba? I think the one I saw [a photo of] was Orsi. Bell up might be a good thing for cimbasso, and it's the direction you want to go for less weird appearance.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by Mark »

bloke wrote:My experience, though (from crappy to sublime) is that mathematics, mostly, dominates in that range.
He might have a much better trigger on the first-valve slide and with a longer throw.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by PaulMaybery »

My take is that the Cimbasso, as a directional instrument, needs to have its bell directed in the same line as the other 3 trombones. When you think about it, it is rather strange that the tuba in the opera pit is the only instrument directed up and out into the house.
Actually I find the shape of most modern Cimbassos (valved contra bass trombone) rather magnificent and somewhat imposing.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by hup_d_dup »

58mark wrote:I wonder if a cimbasso might catch on a little better if it didn't look like something out of a Dr Suess book?
In fact, at the recent Tuba/Euphonium PlayIN in Philadelphia Carol Jantsch introduced the sole cimbasso to the audience as "that Dr. Suess-looking thing."

I think the more worrisome problem of the configuration is that the two long lever arms make the center of the instrument vulnerable to stress incidents.
58mark wrote:Maybe a redesign is in order? Something you can set in a chair, still bell forward, but wrapped more like a traditional tuba? Essentially a tuba pea shooter
Essentially a bass trombonium.

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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by Bob Kolada »

http://www.tubaforum.it/foto/G&PMaggio2 ... ssoNew.JPG


I have something smaller but similar-
http://i.imgur.com/iVTcNKxh.jpg
I think something in this format with a recording bell would be interesting.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by joh_tuba »

https://youtu.be/mEa4VqsXBug?t=19m25s

If these horns are 'above average' in tune why would Olka play the C below the staff 1&3 plus trigger rather than use the fourth valve?
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by Bob Kolada »

That seems like a response or ergonomic thing.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by MaryAnn »

Maybe he has his fourth valve tuned for other uses.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by barry grrr-ero »

If the bell is pointing up and you're playing in 12 ft. F, why not just buy a smallish but 'good' F tuba? It'll still have plenty of 'center' and 'core' to the sound.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by Donn »

I sure don't know anything about why anyone would play a cimbasso, but even so it seems fairly likely that it's not because they want to sound like any kind of tuba, weird as that sentiment seems.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by joh_tuba »

There are plenty of perfectly good reasons to want a cimbasso. My concern is the merits and value proposition of the Jinbao product.

I've not played the Jinbao variant and have been around the block enough not give much weight to the opinions of others(positive or negative) no matter the accomplishments of the person providing the opinion nor how good others sound when playing.

Based on the evidence to date it's *probably* not an exceptional instrument or necessarily the cimbasso we should rush out to buy:

1) Tom McGrady won't list them on his website. He's built his brand on an ethic of only importing models that play at an objectively high standard and he's accomplished enough to know the difference. This should give all of us pause regarding this model.
2) Despite the positive review of the Dillon(Jinbao) by Chris Olka of the valves there is NO WAY they are machined to tolerances that are acceptable to long term use. I've pulled apart recent production Jinbao tubas and seen sharp jagged eges on the rotors(that always eventually start to drag and hang once they've seen some use) and jagged ends of tubes that looked like they were sawed by a drunk with a hacksaw. I'm certain it was gone over by Matt before it was shipped out and therefore felt great upon arrival but by nature of how they are built and the cheap linkage they will be problematic over time.
3) Bloke earlier in this thread announced his intention to toss the valve section entirely in part to try a smaller bore that he believes will suit him better. That's a taste thing and shouldn't be considered a knock against the overall design BUT his admitted secondary motive is to replace the valves and linkage with a German built system that doesn't suck. That's a testament to the fact that those valves, no matter the wizardry of a repair tech, can never be made to work the way good rotors should.
4) The cost of sourcing and installing GOOD quality rotors and linkage completely negates the low price. If this horn had great valves and build quality but otherwise played the same and was priced comparable to the Cerveny how different would the reviews be?
5) Chris Olka chose to play a low C which should universally be played fourth valve instead with 1&3 plus a slide pull. The fact that he reported the intonation to be 'above average for a cimbasso' but didn't expand on what that means and then used that fingering raises all sorts of questions for me that I would need to assess for myself before buying. I've seen enough Jinbaos with incorrect slide lengths for me to at least wonder if his arrived with too long a fourth valve to play the low C in tune OR he chose to tune the forth valve in a way that compensates for other tuning problems. Alternatively, there's a response issue on the low C that is easier to navigate 1&3, if so, I would be less inclined to think poorly of the horn.. I'm willing to overcome that issue but not weird intonation. The scarier interpretation is that all cimbassos need a creative fingering strategy to be played in tune. The fact that the $18k Latsch cimbassos come with two tuning slide kickers suggests that maybe is the case. IF So... then someone needs to work out how to build one that actually works in tune and they could make a killing.

Those are my musing anyhow... worth what you paid for them.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by PMeuph »

joh_tuba wrote: 1) Tom McGrady won't list them on his website. He's built his brand on an ethic of only importing models that play at an objectively high standard and he's accomplished enough to know the difference. This should give all of us pause regarding this model.
...
Wow, I think we have a winner for the biggest strawman argument in this thread!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by joh_tuba »

Well..

A guy that could make money selling a thing has chosen not to sell that thing.

It's not so much an argument as it is a 'data point' that I personally find valuable when placed in the context of the other data points listed above and my personal experience with other Jinbao products from other vendors that Mack refuses to import.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by royjohn »

joh_tuba wrote:
A guy that could make money selling a thing has chosen not to sell that thing.

It's not so much an argument as it is a 'data point' that I personally find valuable when placed in the context of the other data points listed above and my personal experience with other Jinbao products from other vendors that Mack refuses to import.
This isn't quite correct. I wrote Tom about the cost to import a Cimbasso for me at the beginning of this thread and he replied that he had ordered them for "a few friends" but didn't plan to carry it as a regular inventory item. There wasn't anything in his email cautioning me against buying one and I doubt a guy like Tom would buy them for "a few friends" if he felt they were terrible, at least not without mentioning same to me.

Wessex, as you probably know, carries the cimbasso in F and Eb and here is what they say on their website:

"The Eb cimbasso is based on a German design, but has improvements, including extra bracing, to make it stronger in use. This cimbasso plays superbly well, being easy blowing, with a characteristic tone and good tuning. It works well in providing tonal variation in a recital and played softly without attack therefore making it a good substitute for a muted tuba (with much better tone). It is also incredible fun to play. The feedback from professionals is that this Eb cimbasso is of high quality and plays just as well as the most expensive cimbasso available."

I know this is advertising, but Jonathan is well respected here by many, so I wonder if he'd be selling something very problematical. Maybe he'll chime in...

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't have the money for any cimbasso right now, and precious little use for one, as a rank amature. Just pointing out what these two folks said and noting that when bloke reviewed his, he cautioned that he was pretty picky about valves. I owned a Chinese BBb tuba and it played fine, but I'd agree that the valves weren't as smooth as they could have been, but I never felt that they were going to self-destruct at some point, nor have I heard about such happening. So I think it's down to different strokes for different folks. :D :D :D
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by PMeuph »

joh_tuba wrote:
A guy that could make money selling a thing has chosen not to sell that thing.
"Make money"... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Were taking about a cimbasso, not sousaphones... How many have been sold? Is there even one in every state?
Last edited by PMeuph on Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OK, if cimbassos are suppose to be such pieces of junk,

Post by pjv »

I always thought people said "cimbasso" because "contrabass valved trombone" is way too long a word.
CVT anyone?
And now that we're on the subject; whatever happened to "tuba on a stick"? Cause in all honesty, that's how I use it. I'm not playing it to be or substitute a contra-bone. I play it for the difference in sound. So, yeah, I'm actually kind of happy that it sounds like a tuba.
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