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Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:49 pm
by dantetuba
Hello guys,
Few months ago I saw here in this forum some pics of the Chicago brass section of they embouchure.
But I'm not finding it.
Could someone help me?
Thanks
Dante
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:16 am
by MaryAnn
That Farkas book has some truly amazing pictures of embouchures that work for pro players. There is no "one right way" to form an embouchure....I remember one picture where the hornist had a pronounced Cupid's Bow (bump in the middle of the upper lip, and his embouchure consisted of only that little bump at the very top and the entire rest of it was lower lip. He found a way to play with that bump, and got to pro level. Weirdest thing I've ever seen but I'm sure he could play the pants off many with standard looking embouchures.
There are also quite a few out there who are considerably off to one side or the other, sometimes to avoid that same bump getting in the way, sometimes because of tooth formation causing problems.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:03 am
by royjohn
The picture shows Mr. Jacobs holding an embouchure visualizer up to his lips, but it isn't a true illustration of how he played. It might or might not be an illustration of how he thought he played, but it probably isn't how he actually played. I would trust a picture of him actually playing a lot more. Another thing about this picture is that it shows his lip line just very slightly below center and, as far as I've researched and experienced, that is not where anybody plays. You either play with the lip line in the top third of the mpc or down in the lower third or lower (the 15% of people who play upstream).
Respectfully submitted,
royjohn
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:14 am
by royjohn
That's not exactly what I was saying...I'm merely opining that Mr. Jacobs may have held up the visualizer to illustrate something (who knows what) or held it up to illustrate what he thought was the proper embouchure, while that might not be how he actually played. Actually, since I posted, I looked at several pictures of Mr. Jacobs with a tuba + mpc on his lips and it looked like a low placement, although higher than I would have thought a low placement would be. Still with the lip line below center.
All that said, it IS true that Doc Reinhardt recommended lip buzzing with a downstream embouchure no matter how you actually played. So it's certainly possible that Mr. Jacobs was illustrating a lip buzzing embouchure different from his playing embouchure...or not. So there you are. I agree with bloke that a buzzing embouchure is (should be) downstream regardless of how you play.
Be aware that upstream players are supposedly only 15% of players, but if you should be playing upstream and are trying to play downstream, you are in a world of hurt.
Best,
royjohn
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:38 pm
by MaryAnn
Well I am a heretic then but mr bloke has made it clear he doesn't care whether I agree with him or not (but I don't care whether anyone at all agrees with me, so whatever.....) nobody actually plays the way they free buzz if they sound like anything at all, because when you add the resistance of the instrument all else changes. I have used free buzzing when trying to show two different people how to get a sound out of a dijeridoo, and it was very helpful for both, in the "Oh now I get it!" category.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:37 am
by timothy42b
MaryAnn wrote:That Farkas book has some truly amazing pictures of embouchures that work for pro players. There is no "one right way" to form an embouchure....
In the interests of precision, I have to add a comment, since the statement could be interpreted more than one way.
There are clearly a lot of embouchure settings that work for somebody.
But for a given person, there's a good chance there might be "one right way" for that person.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:32 am
by dantetuba
russiantuba wrote:Is this the one?
No sorry but this picture is awesome.
I would like to show for some peoples friends of mine that you don't need to take care of how is your embouchure but how the song sing.
The picyures that I mean have:
Sir Jacobs and the trombone naipe too, the pictures show with close they embouchure.
I apreciated your help tubenet members
Thanks
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:06 pm
by TacoTacoTaco
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:33 am
by timothy42b
tuben wrote:bloke wrote:whoops...
Is one more person hinting that they may possibly believe that "free buzzing" and "playing" aren't all that similar?
Free buzzing as in without mouthpiece or rim (as in the lips/mouthpiece/horn exercise of Caruso)?
Yes. Free buzzing is just that, no mechanical aids.
I don't know how useful it is for a tuba player. Reinhardt never let his trumpet or trombone students free buzz in the low range, as it changed the embouchure setting too much. Caruso I think does go lower.
Arnold Jacobs on Embouchure
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:53 am
by Robert Tucci
Arnold Jacobs often said that the embouchure was the result of the demands placed upon it.
Bob Tucci
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:21 am
by timothy42b
bloke wrote:all this time, and still no pic from "Art of Brass Playing"...not even a phone pic.
If I figure out where my copy is located, I'll see about it.
Oh, is Jacobs in that? I know where my copy is, I'll check when I get home.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:55 pm
by Radar
bloke wrote:all this time, and still no pic from "Art of Brass Playing"...not even a phone pic.
If I figure out where my copy is located, I'll see about it.
I've scanned page 31 from the Farkas book (has 3 pictures of Kleinhammer, and 3 of Jacobs), and tried to crop the individual pictures down to a size where they will upload here (there seems to be a 1K limit on post uploads) but just can't get them small enough to upload. If someone wants to send me a private message that can upload it I'll e-mail it to you.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:49 pm
by brianf
How about this one??
embouchure 12 (3).jpg
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:07 pm
by royjohn
That last one is his secret high note embouchure.
royjohn
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:02 am
by dantetuba
perfect!!!!
Thanks a lot guys...
Dante
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:12 am
by Alex C
Can you imagine correcting the embouchure of a student who plays like that? Yet, many teachers would do just that and probably ruin a student or two along the way.
Mr. Jacobs always taught for functionality to make music. If there was something the student could not do, find a way to fix the problem, always concentrating on the functional goal. Very few things were ever broken down into "mechanical" issues. A style of teaching lost for the most part.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:00 pm
by MaryAnn
Guess what? His secret high range embouchure, if that is not a joke, is exactly what I do. Whodathunkit? Only way I can get my lips to vibrate high is to have "less lip"...and this applies to all brasses. I don't know how other people do it, but simple rolling has not yet got me there.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:57 am
by timothy42b
Alex C wrote:
Mr. Jacobs always taught for functionality to make music. If there was something the student could not do, find a way to fix the problem, always concentrating on the functional goal. Very few things were ever broken down into "mechanical" issues. .
I'm not sure how true that really is, though.
We tend to see what fits our preconceived notions.
I had always thought Jacobs taught only "song and wind." But I watched one of his youtube videos, and I was startled to see him addressing mechanics. I didn't know he did that.
Probably he used a functional approach with students who needed it, and a different approach with others. I'm just guessing, never met him. Most students do better functionally, especially the naturals, who are what he's more likely to have seen at his level. Others don't.
Re: Jacobs embouchure picture
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:22 am
by happyroman
timothy42b wrote:Alex C wrote:
Mr. Jacobs always taught for functionality to make music. If there was something the student could not do, find a way to fix the problem, always concentrating on the functional goal. Very few things were ever broken down into "mechanical" issues. .
I'm not sure how true that really is, though.
We tend to see what fits our preconceived notions.
I had always thought Jacobs taught only "song and wind." But I watched one of his youtube videos, and I was startled to see him addressing mechanics. I didn't know he did that.
Probably he used a functional approach with students who needed it, and a different approach with others. I'm just guessing, never met him. Most students do better functionally, especially the naturals, who are what he's more likely to have seen at his level. Others don't.
Jacobs treated every student as an individual, so his approach with one student may differ substantially from his approach with another. This is why there is no true "Jacobs Method" and probably why he never wrote an instruction book. But, if you read the various books that have been written about him and his teaching methods, you can glean some insight into his overarching concepts, which can be summarized as "Song and Wind."
Another excellent resource into his teaching methods are the interview videos that Mike Grose has posted on his YouTube site, TubaPeopleTV. He has interviewed over 100 Jacobs students about their experiences in Jacobs' studio, and while there are many differences, there are definitely many similarities in his approach.
You mention that you watched one video and were startled to see that he was "addressing mechanics." I would be interested to know which video you watched so I can understand what you mean by mechanics.
In many masterclass situations, he would identify that the student was doing something prejudicial with his breathing, limiting his ability to produce the song aspect. In those situations, he would often exercise the student in order to free up the breathing process, many times using some of his homemade breathing devices. But even then, he was having the student focus on the goal and not on the muscles. He wanted the student to focus on moving large quantities of air in and out of the mouth while their attention was on a ball in a tube or a needle on a gauge.
At any rate, the mental focus of singing in the head while playing was absolutely the most important thing he wanted the student to do.
Finally, these comments about Jacobs are not based on preconceived notions, but rather on my personal experiences in Mr. Jacobs studio. I'm pretty sure that goes for Alex, too. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Alex also studied with Jacobs personally.