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Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby dantetuba » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:49 pm

Hello guys,

Few months ago I saw here in this forum some pics of the Chicago brass section of they embouchure.
But I'm not finding it.

Could someone help me?

Thanks

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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby bloke » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:39 pm

That picture was published in "The Art of Brass Playing" by Philip Farkas.

I did, though, stumble across this one online in which one can still see the crooked angle of the lips crossing the rim opening.

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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby MaryAnn » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:16 am

That Farkas book has some truly amazing pictures of embouchures that work for pro players. There is no "one right way" to form an embouchure....I remember one picture where the hornist had a pronounced Cupid's Bow (bump in the middle of the upper lip, and his embouchure consisted of only that little bump at the very top and the entire rest of it was lower lip. He found a way to play with that bump, and got to pro level. Weirdest thing I've ever seen but I'm sure he could play the pants off many with standard looking embouchures.
There are also quite a few out there who are considerably off to one side or the other, sometimes to avoid that same bump getting in the way, sometimes because of tooth formation causing problems.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby royjohn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:03 am

The picture shows Mr. Jacobs holding an embouchure visualizer up to his lips, but it isn't a true illustration of how he played. It might or might not be an illustration of how he thought he played, but it probably isn't how he actually played. I would trust a picture of him actually playing a lot more. Another thing about this picture is that it shows his lip line just very slightly below center and, as far as I've researched and experienced, that is not where anybody plays. You either play with the lip line in the top third of the mpc or down in the lower third or lower (the 15% of people who play upstream).
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby bloke » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:00 am

whoops...
Is one more person hinting that they may possibly believe that "free buzzing" and "playing" aren't all that similar?

It's heresy to agree with bloke on this ! :shock:
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby royjohn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:14 am

That's not exactly what I was saying...I'm merely opining that Mr. Jacobs may have held up the visualizer to illustrate something (who knows what) or held it up to illustrate what he thought was the proper embouchure, while that might not be how he actually played. Actually, since I posted, I looked at several pictures of Mr. Jacobs with a tuba + mpc on his lips and it looked like a low placement, although higher than I would have thought a low placement would be. Still with the lip line below center.

All that said, it IS true that Doc Reinhardt recommended lip buzzing with a downstream embouchure no matter how you actually played. So it's certainly possible that Mr. Jacobs was illustrating a lip buzzing embouchure different from his playing embouchure...or not. So there you are. I agree with bloke that a buzzing embouchure is (should be) downstream regardless of how you play.

Be aware that upstream players are supposedly only 15% of players, but if you should be playing upstream and are trying to play downstream, you are in a world of hurt.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby bloke » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:21 am

royjohn wrote:That's not exactly what I was saying...


Thank goodness.
I'd hate for you to be the intelligentsia's needless target of ridicule.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby MaryAnn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:38 pm

Well I am a heretic then but mr bloke has made it clear he doesn't care whether I agree with him or not (but I don't care whether anyone at all agrees with me, so whatever.....) nobody actually plays the way they free buzz if they sound like anything at all, because when you add the resistance of the instrument all else changes. I have used free buzzing when trying to show two different people how to get a sound out of a dijeridoo, and it was very helpful for both, in the "Oh now I get it!" category.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby russiantuba » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:48 pm

Is this the one?

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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby bloke » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:22 pm

kinda think the pic in the book was a straight-on pic.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby timothy42b » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:37 am

MaryAnn wrote:That Farkas book has some truly amazing pictures of embouchures that work for pro players. There is no "one right way" to form an embouchure....


In the interests of precision, I have to add a comment, since the statement could be interpreted more than one way.

There are clearly a lot of embouchure settings that work for somebody.

But for a given person, there's a good chance there might be "one right way" for that person.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby bloke » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:45 pm

...and the saga continues... :shock:
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby dantetuba » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:32 am

russiantuba wrote:Is this the one?

Image

No sorry but this picture is awesome.
I would like to show for some peoples friends of mine that you don't need to take care of how is your embouchure but how the song sing.

The picyures that I mean have:
Sir Jacobs and the trombone naipe too, the pictures show with close they embouchure.

I apreciated your help tubenet members

Thanks
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby tuben » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:38 pm

bloke wrote:whoops...
Is one more person hinting that they may possibly believe that "free buzzing" and "playing" aren't all that similar?


Free buzzing as in without mouthpiece or rim (as in the lips/mouthpiece/horn exercise of Caruso)?
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby TacoTacoTaco » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:06 pm

bloke wrote:...and the saga continues... :shock:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby timothy42b » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:33 am

tuben wrote:
bloke wrote:whoops...
Is one more person hinting that they may possibly believe that "free buzzing" and "playing" aren't all that similar?


Free buzzing as in without mouthpiece or rim (as in the lips/mouthpiece/horn exercise of Caruso)?


Yes. Free buzzing is just that, no mechanical aids.

I don't know how useful it is for a tuba player. Reinhardt never let his trumpet or trombone students free buzz in the low range, as it changed the embouchure setting too much. Caruso I think does go lower.
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Arnold Jacobs on Embouchure

Postby Robert Tucci » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:53 am

Arnold Jacobs often said that the embouchure was the result of the demands placed upon it.

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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby bloke » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:12 am

all this time, and still no pic from "Art of Brass Playing"...not even a phone pic.

If I figure out where my copy is located, I'll see about it.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby timothy42b » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:21 am

bloke wrote:all this time, and still no pic from "Art of Brass Playing"...not even a phone pic.

If I figure out where my copy is located, I'll see about it.


Oh, is Jacobs in that? I know where my copy is, I'll check when I get home.
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Re: Jacobs embouchure picture

Postby Radar » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:55 pm

bloke wrote:all this time, and still no pic from "Art of Brass Playing"...not even a phone pic.

If I figure out where my copy is located, I'll see about it.


I've scanned page 31 from the Farkas book (has 3 pictures of Kleinhammer, and 3 of Jacobs), and tried to crop the individual pictures down to a size where they will upload here (there seems to be a 1K limit on post uploads) but just can't get them small enough to upload. If someone wants to send me a private message that can upload it I'll e-mail it to you.
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