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Differences between old Cerveny and B&S stencils

Postby royjohn » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:13 am

I've been looking at some of the stencils from the 60's and 70's, some maybe older. These are the horns marked Karl Ziess Master Modelle and also Sonora, Gerhard Schneider, etc. One version of these horns has tubing coming out of the first and fourth valves at a 45 degree angle, like the Alexander 163, while the other has that tubing coming out straight parallel to the long axis of the horn, looking just like a Mirafone 186. The latter of these appears to be nearly a copy of the Amati 481/Cerveny 681 and so I think it was built by Cerveny/Amati. All of these horns are pretty tall, about 43 inches, and have fairly small bells, maybe 15.75" to 16.5". Beyond that, IDK what the differences might be. I've seen the bore quoted at 0.750" and at 0.787" at the second valve and larger later on.

Can anyone shed any light on the details of these? Which would be the best to have? And, yes, of course, I'll try before I think about buying.
TIA,
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Re: Differences between old Cerveny and B&S stencils

Postby toobagrowl » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:39 am

Yes, the Cerveny stencils are usually the model CBB 681, while the B&S stencils are usually the model 101.
Aside from the different geometry/shape, the B&S 101 stencils are at least a couple inches taller than the Cerveny 681 stencils.
I believe the Cerveny has a .787"-ish valve bore, while the B&S has a .750"-ish valve bore.
You can also see the differences in thumb rings, ferrules & rotor paddles, too. :idea:
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Re: Differences between old Cerveny and B&S stencils

Postby NCSUSousa » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:44 am

As a general rule, if it's shaped like the old Alex 163 (angled entry and exit), it's a B&S stencil made in East Germany.
As a general rule, if it's shaped like the Cerveny 686 (which actually came before the Miraphone 186 before WWII), then it's a Czech stencil, made by Cerveny.

Personally, I prefer the Alex style instruments (stencil or not) over the Cerveny style instruments. You probably need to play them to figure out which one (if not both) that you like before buying.

There's not a whole lot more light to shine on these. Once the linkage system is upgraded to miniballs, these tubas as good as anything else as long as the valves and slides all still move correctly.

royjohn wrote:I've been looking at some of the stencils from the 60's and 70's, some maybe older. These are the horns marked Karl Ziess Master Modelle and also Sonora, Gerhard Schneider, etc. One version of these horns has tubing coming out of the first and fourth valves at a 45 degree angle, like the Alexander 163, while the other has that tubing coming out straight parallel to the long axis of the horn, looking just like a Mirafone 186. The latter of these appears to be nearly a copy of the Amati 481/Cerveny 681 and so I think it was built by Cerveny/Amati. All of these horns are pretty tall, about 43 inches, and have fairly small bells, maybe 15.75" to 16.5". Beyond that, IDK what the differences might be. I've seen the bore quoted at 0.750" and at 0.787" at the second valve and larger later on.

Can anyone shed any light on the details of these? Which would be the best to have? And, yes, of course, I'll try before I think about buying.
TIA,
royjohn
BBb Tuba with 4 Rotors - TE-2110.
I earn my living as an Electrical Engineer.
I only play Tuba for fun, never for profit. - My current weekly playtime is: http://www.DurhamBand.org :D
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Re: Differences between old Cerveny and B&S stencils

Postby groth » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:38 am

Don't forget Kroner stencils also made in Kraslice. These were the Amati line that was sent to the USA from the early 60's on. Most of these valve bores were .795". If the OP's question was in regards to the one on Craigslist recently in GA, that's more the B&S stencil I believe.
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Re: Differences between old Cerveny and B&S stencils

Postby Michael Bush » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:53 pm

+1 for the B&S made ones. At this point they're all old, but if they're in good enough shape they are rock solid.
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