America West new policy

[MaryAnn]

How does a 500 lb person fit in an airline seat? After one extremely uncomfortable flight in which we allowed a very large person to raise the arm rest to get into the seat, and being subsequently squashed for the entire flight, the next time when someone asked to raise the arm rest we adamently said NO and let him be the one squeezed. His big butt still protruded on to the next seat, but at least the part of him between the arm rests was contained. I found it absolutely disgusting. You know, large/portly is one thing, and horribly obese is another.

And your point is well taken. There should be a poundage limit per passenger, period. I run into the same thing at "all you can eat" buffets....people waddle in there and pay the same price I do, and eat about 10 times as much. I'm paying for their food, basically. No I don't go to that kind of buffet very often.

MA

[Doug@GT]

their measurement of the cases was 84 inches, 4 inches over the "limit,"

Perhaps the Case manufacturers need to be notified about this. If they could shave 4" off the design, they could market the case as "A flight case you can fly with" or something. Maybe offer discounted upgrades or something.

Just a thought.

[Tom Holtz]

Be forewarned that America West Airlines has a new policy of strictly enforcing weight and size limits on checked baggage

Thanks for the heads-up. I thought America West had a larger size allowance for checked bags, but I was mistaken. Ugh, what a drag.

[Shockwave]

Does anyone know how well Jet Blue enforces their bag size limit? I want to take my big huge recording bass on a plane, but both cases are "oversize". I think I can put the body in a bag and call it a carry-on but the bell case will have to be checked. Maybe if I turn it the right way it won't look so big to the clerk.

-Eric

[Tom Holtz]

I think I can put the body in a bag and call it a carry-on

Is this what happened with Jimmy Hoffa?

[fpoon]

I have no idea about flying with tubas on airplanes (never tried it, and hopefully I'll never have to) but charging people more for a ticket because they're fat is crazy. What about if someones really tall, and they have to stick their legs in all sorts of crazy ways to just fit in the tiny seat? Airlines shouldn't have rules about if you're too tall or too fat. People who are either big folks and or tall will usually try and drive if possible, but you can't always pull it off. But on cross country flights and oversees type stuff, flying cramped is really the only way to go about it.

However, I think arlines SHOULD offer bigger seats and more leg room for people willing to pay. My Dad is 6'6' and about 290 lbs. (big dude) and I know he'd happily pay more to actually be somewhat comfterable on a flight... But forcing people to buy those seats? No way.

[Rick Denney]

However, I think arlines SHOULD offer bigger seats and more leg room for people willing to pay. My Dad is 6'6' and about 290 lbs. (big dude) and I know he'd happily pay more to actually be somewhat comfterable on a flight... But forcing people to buy those seats? No way.

They do. It's called first class. Get your checkbook ready.

Mary Ann is about 4-1/2 feet tall and could probably make the trip comfortably in the overhead compartment. But the problem is simply this: Airlines fill their airplanes with seats that are too small for a significantly large percentage of their customers. It is not the customer's fault. I'm 6 feet and weight 230, plump but not really fat, and certainly not obese. I'm no bigger than my father when he was flying on airplanes with bigger seats 40 years ago. But I find the seats to be terribly cramped, and I fly on United in the "Premier" section which has more leg room (but not more width).

The other problem is that the airlines have designed and trimmed their routes to fill all the seats (not typical back even in the profitable days), and many of those people sitting in those seats aren't paying enough for them to pay their share of the cost of operating the airplane. To me, since they are getting a free ride, they should not complain if I'm hogging the arm rest. I get hit in the face by people who don't know where their backpacks are, and have had people drop their bags on me trying to stuff them the wrong way into the overheads too many times to have much sympathy left. I have no control over the length of my bones, but the airline surely does have control over the seat width and the row spacing.

The puddle jumpers are the worst.

Let's face it: Flying sucks. Carrying a tuba while flying sucks squared.

Rick "who will be making 8 trips by air in the next three months--so far" Denney

[Leland]

They do. It's called first class. Get your checkbook ready.

Or, if they have a route for you, fly Midwest Express. They use first class-style seats on the entire airplane. Exit row seats still have the best legroom, but you certainly will not need to share a skinny armrest with anyone else.

www.midwestexpress.com

(I sometimes wish they would show off a little bit more and have photos of their aircraft cabins)

Oh, and free chocolate chip cookies...

reviews:
http://www.epinions.com/trvl-Airlines-U ... y_~reviews

[Tom Holtz]

Flying sucks. Carrying a tuba while flying sucks squared.

Best line of the year, so far. It's going to work with me next week. We're playing "Dionysiaques" on the 22nd, and I have a hunch that on at least one rehearsal, I'll be able to lay a "sucks squared" on myself or someone else.

[ThomasDodd]

The whole airline industry is crap. The feds are too involved for everyone's good.

POS (people of size) should buy an extra ticket so they(and everone else) have some room. But they should be a standard, share across the industry for it. Maybe a gate you must walk through (like they use for carry-on bags). If you don't fit (either to wide or too tall) you need something other than a single coach ticket.

Same for baggage. Set dimensions that are strictky adheared to. Again, some method to check, like a box that you put it in, and it must close easily.

Charge a rate that pays the cost, and quit overbooking every flight. If you buy a ticket, you should have a seat.

While we're at it, lets make the TSA rules more sensable.
Let me know when it happens.

Untill then, you best choice for a comfortable flight is to charter a plane, and fly through small airports.

[Rick Denney]

The whole airline industry is crap. The feds are too involved for everyone's good.

POS (people of size) should buy an extra ticket so they(and everone else) have some room.

Am I the only one who sees the fundamental paradox between these two statements? Who would enforce a size standard so that it is consistently enforeced? The airlines? Please.

Again, when you have seats designed so that a reasonable percentage of the population can sit in them comfortably, then come talk to me about making people buy two tickets. And the definition of "reasonable" can only be determined by making the assumption that 95% of all full-fare travelers are reasonable. If you make those 95% comfortable, most of the remaining 5% will be tolerable.

The problem comes when you or anyone else decides what is "too big" and what is "not too big". Any decision made by any person will be arbitrary and capricious. It has to be based on the size most people actually are. The airlines based their seating on the average person, which means half the population will be uncomfortable. Make no mistake--whoever gets designated as too big will not be able to find employment in jobs that require travel, so you aren't just making them buy two tickets.

And I don't care about those who are not paying their own way. When I have to pay $1000 to sit in a middle seat while the preferred aisle seat goes to someone who paid $175, just because I got orders to fly more recently, then I frankly don't much care what they think. The airlines are selling seats at a loss and expecting business travelers (and taxpayers) to make up the difference--they deserve to go broke.

Rick "who will lose about 200,000 frequent-flyer miles if United goes belly-up" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

[Rick Denney]

a picture of a billboard that says "Ride the Train" that actually didn't show a broken link once in five times I tried to see it

Boy, I would ride the train much more often if the Feds would pay me the time required. Airplanes have one clear advantage: They are fast. As it is I can bill 4 hours for travel each way when I teach a class for the Feds, and I teach them coast to coast. I can't even fly to anywhere in four hours. I end up doing quite a bit of traveling on my own time. The train would be worse.

Rick "but airports are slow" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

The whole airline industry is crap. The feds are too involved for everyone's good.

POS (people of size) should buy an extra ticket so they(and everone else) have some room.

Am I the only one who sees the fundamental paradox between these two statements? Who would enforce a size standard so that it is consistently enforeced? The airlines? Please.

Non-governmental standard are out there, and often are voluntary too.
Ex. the size limit of a carry-on bag is standard, at least in the states. If you can take it on Delra, you can take it on United, or AA. The problem is the limits are not always enforced.

Again, when you have seats designed so that a reasonable percentage of the population can sit in them comfortably,

When a reasonable percentage of the population stops being obese, they'l fit comfortably in the current seats.

That's not to say the current seats are great, but that's a seperate issue. I can sit on a wooden stool, folding chair, or Lazy boy, but which would I prefer?

The problem comes when you or anyone else decides what is "too big" and what is "not too big". Any decision made by any person will be arbitrary and capricious. It has to be based on the size most people actually are.

That the reason for a sizing gate, similar to that used for carry-on bags.

It's the width of the seat, and as tall as is deamed a comfortable height. You must be able to walk thriough it without turning sideways, or ducking. For tall folk, there could be a seperate check for leggs only, since some tall people have long upper bodies, and athers don't.

Tall people should have option to move to a row with more leg room, if possible. And a row should be mandated for tall passengers. If you are not tall, you will move when that seat needed.

Making room for somone with a 60" waist is not doable, other than buying a second seat.

[Rick Denney]

When a reasonable percentage of the population stops being obese, they'l fit comfortably in the current seats.

For a guy who thinks as conservatively as you do, you sure are quick to jump on the obesity bandwagon. Next, you'll be quoting body mass indexes and prescribing diets to people who you don't think are working hard enough to be thin.

My carry-on is not overstuffed, and it's the same brand the airline people use. I never test the limits of what can be carried on. I do not harass the gate agents, and do not try to board the plane out of order. I stow my bags in the overhead appropriately (wheels first instead of sideways), and choose bags that will work that way. I dress appropriately to be in close quarters with other people (i.e., no shorts on the airplane). I always have the correct ID and flight documentation available at the correct times. In short, I contribute as little as possible to the operating cost of the airlines. I'm like most regular business travelers, but utterly unlike most tourists, who routinely screw up every item above. Yet those people are rewarded with lower fares because they don't care when they leave or when they arrive (or, that's what they say, but when they are delayed, they scream louder than anybody). But I was born with my bones and putting me (or people larger than me) in a separate and more pricey service because of it is a back-of-the-bus response.

What I think they should do is get rid of those paying less than it costs to fly them, remove those seats, and give everyone who is actually paying their way a bit of extra room. Those people may be skinny, but they are not carrying their weight.

Rick "who thinks most airplanes are like a Greyhound bus" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

When a reasonable percentage of the population stops being obese, they'l fit comfortably in the current seats.

For a guy who thinks as conservatively as you do, you sure are quick to jump on the obesity bandwagon. Next, you'll be quoting body mass indexes and prescribing diets to people who you don't think are working hard enough to be thin.

I'm talkuing the business setting the standard, not the governement. The government is too involved already.

But I was born with my bones and putting me (or people larger than me) in a separate and more pricey service because of it is a back-of-the-bus response.

Having not met you, I wouldn't comment on your size. But, how wide do you siggest the seats be?
My chair at work is 21" across, but there are other chairs here that are 18" and 16". All are comfortable to me. Several large guys (50" waist large) here sit in the 18" chairs quite often.

What I think they should do is get rid of those paying less than it costs to fly them, remove those seats, and give everyone who is actually paying their way a bit of extra room. Those people may be skinny, but they are not carrying their weight.

Those cheap fares come at a heavy price. Like not geeting a seat because of overbooking. And they are non-refundable, and you cannot change travel dates.

Full fare, you usually have a set assigned at purchase, no bumps. You can change travel dates, and even return the ticket for a refund. Those are the reasons my employer buys full fare for business flights. I've had trips cancled, and return dates pushed back weeks. All domestic flights have had seats assigned at purchase time.

But yeah, they need to add a little room, maybe one less row of seats. Business class for CONUS filghts would be nice too. Let all the cheap skates fly in a cramped coach, and give they full fare folk a nicer section.

[Rick Denney]

I'm talkuing the business setting the standard, not the governement. The government is too involved already.

How exactly would that happen? Put up a "sizing gate" and an airline will be sued, probably on the first day. Then the courts can decide it.

Having not met you, I wouldn't comment on your size. But, how wide do you siggest the seats be?

Just what I suggested before. Wide enough so that 95% of their paying customers can sit in them without unduly invading the space of their neighbors.

Those cheap fares come at a heavy price. Like not geeting a seat because of overbooking. And they are non-refundable, and you cannot change travel dates.

Thanks for explaining how it works, heh, heh (sacrastically quips the guy who can probably still identify the exit row on a dozen or so different equipment configurations, and who gets one of those shiny gold Premiere Executive cards from the airline every year). Of course, clients see those cheap fares and then decide they will only pay those cheap fares. So, I'm often forced to eat the entire cost of a ticket when my client's plans change, setting up a big argument about the contents of our invoice. (Our big client is the Federal Government--their employees get to fly at negotiated rates with no advance notice, but they won't give us those credentials even though they expect us get the same prices.) On those occasions when I am forced to travel at the last minute, I often have to eat part of the cost of my trip because the client is shocked--SHOCKED!--at the cost of the ticket. I'm hoping the big airlines go broke soon so better minds can come in and take over, even though it will cost me a pile of free tickets that I have earned.

Not all flights have reserved seats. Southwest airlines serves business travelers day in and day out with profitable, cheerful service by allowing first-come, first-served seating that rewards those who know how their system works. But they just don't have much of a presence up here. When I lived in Texas, I knew the drill and got a good seat nearly every time. United has become a seething cauldron of hate by comparison. I despise flying any more.

Rick "who bought a raggedy old motorhome to prevent ever having to fly for 'fun'" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

I'm talkuing the business setting the standard, not the governement. The government is too involved already.

How exactly would that happen? Put up a "sizing gate" and an airline will be sued, probably on the first day. Then the courts can decide it.

That's another, seperate problem. Better served with the old politics forum:)

But, I suggest, if such a gate were errected, in the name of passenger safety, it would avoid the courts. The current system, make the POS decision arbitrary, and at the descression of the airline counter agents(or managers). If the gate were there, it no longer arbitrary, either you fit, or you don't. Just like if someone says "taht bag is too big" and it fits in the box, it's not. If it doesn't fit, it's too big. End of discussion.

How would physical size ristrictions on a passenger be any different that amusement part rides that have similar restrictions? They aren't constantly in court.

If an airline wanted to cater to "large" passengers, they are free to do so, just like "Big & Tall" stores do. I wouldn't got there expecting to find clothes to fit me, and more than my 6'5" brother-in-law expect to find clothes at Wal-Mart.


quote]

Having not met you, I wouldn't comment on your size. But, how wide do you siggest the seats be?

Just what I suggested before. Wide enough so that 95% of their paying customers can sit in them without unduly invading the space of their neighbors.[/quote]

No numbers? I suspect that the seat already fit 80% of the customers fine. So a littler larger, or a row or two of larger seat, reserve first for larger customers would be a valid option. But again, some non-arbitraryy method need to be in place for deciding who uses them. If you are more than X wide you get one (first come first serve). If you are less than X wide, you must move if somone larger needs the seat.

Rick "who bought a raggedy old motorhome to prevent ever having to fly for 'fun'" Denney

Perhaps you should look into a co-op owned private plane? Anyone know what they cost now?

[Rick Denney]

No numbers? I suspect that the seat already fit 80% of the customers fine. So a littler larger, or a row or two of larger seat, reserve first for larger customers would be a valid option. But again, some non-arbitraryy method need to be in place for deciding who uses them. If you are more than X wide you get one (first come first serve). If you are less than X wide, you must move if somone larger needs the seat.

...

Perhaps you should look into a co-op owned private plane? Anyone know what they cost now?

I hate flying, but sitting in an even more cramped Gulfstream, where you have to bend at the waist to go to the lavatory, is not designed to assuage my hatred. As much as I hate the airport experience, the small-plane experience is even worse. (My father in law is a retired Washington Center ATC with 12,000 hours and his own plane, and my wife's uncle owns four planes and retired from a career teaching aircraft mechanics, to which he flew every day from his back-forty airstrip. Her great-uncle retired a few years ago after a life of brokering corportate jets, and he got too old to fly and had to sell his own Citation. We are all meeting at Oshkosh probably next year, but I'll be arriving in my raggedy motorhome, thank you.)

Providing oversized seats for oversized passengers is a resonable accommodation, as long as they are provided to those who show the need and not at double the rate. I would not qualify for those seats, but I'd be glad not to have to sit next to someone who did. But I'll survive being cramped any day before seeing the anti-fat crowd mark off a significant percentage of the population as being unfit for travel by air. It's too much a requirement for many jobs, like being able to drive a car.

80% isn't good enough, considering that human bodies are 70% water which is an incompressible fluid.

My point is that it should be population itself that determines what a reasonable size is, and not some sanctimonious skinny policy-maker, whether his business card says an airline or the government.

And providing a means of carrying the tools of one's trade should be accommodated by a clearly stated policy that provides equitable treatment to customers (meaning golf-club toters pay their fair share).

Rick "who almost used the word 'tuba'" Denney

[ThomasDodd]

I hate flying, but sitting in an even more cramped Gulfstream, where you have to bend at the waist to go to the lavatory, is not designed to assuage my hatred.

I guess. I never use onboard bathrooms, excpet for intenational flights. I can go before boarding, and after landing. Anything over 2 hours, and I usually sleep. Still, most adults can got 3-4 hours without a bathroom. On the few occsions you need one, a cramped space is fine.

Providing oversized seats for oversized passengers is a resonable accommodation, as long as they are provided to those who show the need and not at double the rate.

I was thionkg more, for the "big & tall" crowd, and no no extra fee. Hence the requiements. But they also have to be used by "normal size" passengers for cost reasons. There'd still be an Oversize, POS, fee for a true extra seat.

So normal seats are ~ 16-18" Large, "big & tall" seats are 21" (and 3-6" extra leg room?)
Normal covers 80% of the passengers. Large get you to 97%. But you still need to deal with the truely obese/huge. Think William "The Refridgerator" Perry size, Or a 56" waist.

But I'll survive being cramped any day before seeing the anti-fat crowd mark off a significant percentage of the population as being unfit for travel by air.

I'm not suggesting they are unfit, nor being anti-fat. But does that mean every seat should accomodad the largest possible person? I know people that won't fit in my recliner at home. Should I have to buy a chair bigenough for them? I think it too large already.

My point is that it should be population itself that determines what a reasonable size is, and not some sanctimonious skinny policy-maker, whether his business card says an airline or the government.

I don't. The airline should decide what a reasonable size is for their passengers. It's be nice if the sizes were shared via an industry standard, for ease of choosing multiple companies. But The size limit chosen should be posted, and equally enforced.

Why should anyone dictate who a company's customers are? If I want to only fly people under 6' and under 200 lbs so be ity. I'll loose a lot of customers, including some under my limit, but traveling with outher that aren't. Same as the smoking bans in CA. If you want to have a non-smoking bar, fine, but some people like to smocke and drink at the same time. Why can I not provide such a service?

I feel the same with air travel too. The airlines should have had that choice, either the whole company, or select flights could be smoking or non. Again, offering customers what they want. I want a smoking flight from Atlanta to San Francisco, you want larger seats. We should each have the option of flying with the airline that meets out needs.