Converting Old 186 S Linkage

[Bill Troiano]

Hi all! I have a 1965, 186 CC with the older clanky S Linkage. I'm looking to convert it to the newer linage for the first 4 valves. I don't know if that's even possible for the left handed 5th valve. I would happy to leave that one alone and just have the first 4 valves done. Do I order the parts myself and have someone do the job? Do I order directly from Miraphone? Does the repair tech person order the parts? Is there any down side to doing this to my vintage 186? Any advice is appreciated here.Thanks!

[Bill Troiano]

The arm looks like it's all metal, including the hole, Joe. I think my 1972, 186 had a nylon bushing in where the hole is. But, that horn was noisy too. I feel the newer linkages are smoother, more quiet and faster than the old S linkages. This is judging from what I see at conferences and in local high schools that have newer Miraphones.

[bort]

You would have to order the parts through a Miraphone dealer (they won't sell direct to consumer). Might be good to start with Roger Lewis?

I think the biggest downside is the cost. About 6 years ago, I ordered a new 5th valve linkage kit from Miraphone (via Horn Guys), and it cost me $200. I would guess that prices have gone up since then, and wouldn't be surprised if you were looking at close to $1,000 just for the parts, if you are completely replacing everything.

If you can keep the old paddles, paddle bar, etc, I'm sure it will cost less. However, that's what caused so much trouble on my Willson, a retrofit of the old paddles with a new set of linkages. The new holes that were drilled wore out quickly, and were failing left and right.

Rather than keep making repairs, I bought a complete set of new parts from Willson (stop arms through paddles), and had a local tech install them. Parts + labor was right around $1,000, and it was probably the best thing I could have done to my tuba.

[Dan Schultz]

Bill... in my humble opinion... the old 'S' links are far superior to any other style of linkage if they are set up and maintained properly. They can be made to be virtually 'noiseless'.

I agree with Bloke (well... this time anyway!) that the noise problem is often something other than the linkage. Excessive clearance in the thrust bearing surfaces is to blame in 75% of the cases. After that... excessive clearance in the rotor stem bearings is the next major source of noise.

IF linkages are damaged beyond repair I usually opt for the 'off the shelf' plastic spherical links that can be found at hobby shops that specialize in radio controlled cars and aircraft. Those parts are poo-pooed by some but are cheap and nearly indestructible.

[Bill Troiano]

Thanks for all of the replies, guys. Too complicated for me though. I was hoping to just buy and replace. If the S linkages are indeed considered superior, I guess I should just have someone work on them. Personally, I'm not doing any of the suggested repairs myself. I've only had the tuba for about 8 mos. When Lee sold it to me, after he acquired it and worked on it, the valves were quiet and smooth. Within a few months, they began to make enough noise to bother me. Now, they're even noisier. I'll check some of the questionable items suggested to see where the noise is actually coming from.

[tofu]

Bill... in my humble opinion... the old 'S' links are far superior to any other style of linkage if they are set up and maintained properly. They can be made to be virtually 'noiseless'.

+1

That sure is true of my well loved '69 185. They are silky smooth/fast/noiseless. I do regularly maintain them, but nothing at any price matches them. I always get a kick out of the people on here who brag about not doing anything for months to their rotary valves (including oiling) and extoll how they are still great - until they're not of course. Nobody is as pressed for time as I am - but jeez how hard is it to do a little maintenance. It's not exactly rocket science.

[Bill Troiano]

Thanks again for all of the replies. If I can get these to work quietly, then I would be inclined to stick with the S linkages. I don't really like the idea of changing the vintage parts and detracting from the original design. I'm just looking to cut down on the clanking sound.

In the next few days, I'll see if I can determine where the clanking is actually coming from.

As to why they were quiet and now they're not, I have no idea.

As far as oiling, I oil them every few weeks with Al Cass oil. I remove the back plates and put a couple of drops on each spindle thing. Then, I dump a load of oil down the 1st valve slide. I've done nothing as far as oiling the outer linkages. On my 1972 186, back then, I used to put oil on the linkages (any moving parts), but that would cause the gig bag (from the old Miraphone draw string bag) to deposit red lint all over the linkage area. Messy.

[Dan Schultz]

....

As to why they were quiet and now they're not, I have no idea.

As far as oiling, I oil them every few weeks with Al Cass oil. I remove the back plates and put a couple of drops on each spindle thing. Then, I dump a load of oil down the 1st valve slide. I've done nothing as far as oiling the outer linkages. On my 1972 186, back then, I used to put oil on the linkages (any moving parts), but that would cause the gig bag (from the old Miraphone draw string bag) to deposit red lint all over the linkage area. Messy.

Al Cass is fine for pistons but does not have the viscosity necessary to support bearings. Try sewing machine oil or something like Hetmans for bearings and linkage for the bearings and linkages. The heavier oil will eventually migrate into the rotor bodies and slow them down. That's when it's time to flush things with Al Cass or lamp oil.

[Bill Troiano]

OK, well I was under the impression that Al Cass was a light oil, sort of like a rotary oil. That's why I chose to use that. I haven't put any oil on the linkages on this 186 tuba. That is mainly because I didn't want to attract lint when it's in the case. Although the Altieri bag I'm using does have a nylonish interior, so I doubt it would deposit lint on the oiled valves.

Soon, I know it's been discussed here somewhere before, but what should the process be for oiling a rotary valve tuba such as an old 186?
What kind of oils? Probably different on the valves than on the exterior linkage parts.
How often?
Where to place the oil?

A person of my age and experience should know this already, but mainly playing pistons for the past 40 years, I'm not familiar with rotary valve etiquette.

[Radar]

More of a question here than a solution, but I was told that the set screw in the center of the covers over the back bearing plate was there to reduce the up and down motion of the rotors. The procedure I was told to use was to tighten them until they were snug and then back them off until the valve moved freely. Since I didn't see that mentioned in this thread I thought I would ask if that is the proper procedure for adjusting these little screws in the center of the back valve cover, and what those screws are for?

As far as Oiling procedure I oil the outside moving parts on my 186 about once a week with Hetman's key oil, and generously put all case fast down the leadpipe at least once a session. Is there something I need to adjust in the way I'm doing things? I also have the old S linkage, and I don't find the valves to be excessively noisey.